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Old 03-12-2010, 10:11 AM   #1
SuedodeuS
 
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Default Slicing vs Hacking with a Sword

This is inspired by this thread and the discussion of katana vs broadsword therein. I originally wrote this as a reply, then realized it should probably be a topic of its own.

The way I understand it, the curvature of the katana (and other weapons, like shamshirs and the like) makes it so that, almost regardless of the way you are wielding it, it is used for slicing, whereas straighter swords (like the European broadswords) are used more for hacking. Slicing is excellent at causing damage, but said damage is entirely cutting - if you fail to cut through the armor, the attack basically does nothing. Hacking, on the other hand, isn't quite as good at damaging soft tissue (although it does that quite well), but can "get through" (in terms of blunt trauma) armor much more readily. When one considers how resistant steel is to cutting, it seems clear - slicing is best against unarmored or lightly armored foes, while hacking is best against more heavily armored foes.

Assuming the above is true (and it certainly may not be), there needs to be a way to represent it in GURPS. Rumor has it that Low-Tech is going to have a new optional rule for cutting vs armor. Simply put, cutting damage that beats DR, but doesn't double it, fails to actually cut through and thus the damage transmitted is actually crushing. So, against DR 5, 4 damage does nothing, 7 damage does 2 crushing, and 12 damage does either 7 cutting or 5 crushing and 2 cutting. We'll have to wait on the books to know which, although I suspect it's the former and will be working based on this suspicion. We'll use this rule to build the slicing vs hacking dichotomy, and we'll be assuming that the rule is based on some middle ground between the two. The normal DR value (5 in the above case) will be called minDR, the DR value after which damage becomes cutting (10 above) will be called maxDR.

Slicing: Slicing is ideal for causing damage, but it is terrible at transmitting blunt trauma. When slicing, basic damage is increased by +2, or +1/die, whichever is higher. minDR becomes equal to one less than normal maxDR, while maxDR remains unchanged. Highly-curved weapons, like katanas and shamshirs, slice by default (although their stat lines do not include this additional damage). At the GM's option, a straight-edged weapon (like a European broadsword) can be used to slice. This is a Hard Technique, defaulting to Skill-3. Most Axe/Mace weapons may be incapable of slicing.

Hacking: Hacking is extremely good at transmitting blunt trauma through armor. minDR is reduced by 20% (reduce by at least 1), while maxDR is increased by 20% (increase by at least 2). Straight-edged swords and most Axe/Mace weapons hack by default. At the GM's option, a curved weapon (like a katana) can be used to hack. This is a Hard Technique, defaulting to Skill-3.

Example: We'll assume an ST 12 character using Two-Handed Sword. With a katana or bastard sword, he would normally do 1d+4 cut on a swing. Using the optional rule above, the katana (a slicing weapon) does 1d+6, while the bastard sword (a hacking weapon) still only does 1d+4. Against DR 5, however, the katana wielder must deal 10 damage to do 1 cr, or more than 10 to do some cutting. The wielder of the bastard sword, on the other hand, starts dealing crushing damage on a roll of 5 or higher - although he must breach DR 12 (impossible without an additional damage bonus from somewhere) before he starts doing cutting damage. Let's look at the breakdown of probabilities, converting the adds to dice.
Code:
Katana (2d+2)
Probability	Damage	Injury
1/36		4	0
2/36		5	0
3/36		6	0
4/36		7	0
5/36		8	0
6/36		9	0
5/36		10	1
4/36		11	3
3/36		12	4
2/36		13	6
1/36		14	7
AVERAGE			1.333...

Bastard Sword (2d)
Probability	Damage	Injury
1/36		2	0
2/36		3	0
3/36		4	0
4/36		5	1
5/36		6	2
6/36		7	3
5/36		8	4
4/36		9	5
3/36		10	6
2/36		11	7
1/36		12	8
AVERAGE			3.111...
As can be seen, hacking outperforms slicing against armor but (as seen by the basic damage), slicing outperforms hacking against unarmored foes. I also did some more probabilities, and in this case (2d+2 vs 2d), slicing outperforms hacking up through DR 3, after which point hacking is superior. An oddity is that slicing actually outperforms hacking more at DR 2 than at DR 1, as a result of hacking reducing DR 1 to minDR 0. As is also visible, investing in the Slice or Hack Technique can be quite beneficial, as one can Slice against lightly armored foes and Hack against those with heavier armor.

Math: The Slicing Technique gets +2 damage (or +1/die) for -4. It has a special drawback - reduced armor penetration - that gives it a +1. This gives a total of -3. For the Hacking Technique, I simply assumed that hacking with a slicing weapon would be about as difficult as slicing with a hacking weapon. This implies that the improved performance against armor for hacking is worth a -7 (as the damage reduction gives a +4).


Note that these rules are in no way play-tested, and may therefore be unbalanced. They are also in no real way reality-checked, meaning they may greatly overestimate the difference between slicing and hacking (although this may be perfectly appropriate for a cinematic campaign).

What does the hive-mind think?

EDIT: As an alternative option, if you don't want to use the min/maxDR system, then Hacking functions just like normal Cutting, while Slicing gives +1/die (or +2) to damage and reduces armor divisor by one step (generally meaning it becomes 0.5). This should give comparable results.

EDIT2: Based upon further evidence, this system should be considered Cinematic. At the GM's option, curved weapons can be considered as defaulting to Hacking, in which case Slice is simply a Technique any sword can use. If you wish to maintain ethnic badassery, state that Slice is at a lesser penalty (say, -2 instead of -3), or perhaps no penalty at all, when using a curved sword.
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Last edited by SuedodeuS; 03-12-2010 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:51 AM   #2
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Default Re: Slicing vs Hacking

I like your edit better: slicing gets bonus damage but reduces armor divisor. Much simpler. Great ideas!
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: Slicing vs Hacking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupid Jedi View Post
I like your edit better: slicing gets bonus damage but reduces armor divisor. Much simpler.
Fair enough. If one still wants to use the min/maxDR that is apparently in Low-Tech, then that is what should be used for hacking, while slicing uses normal DR rules (but reduces the armor divisor). For example, when hacking, DR 5 is minDR 5, maxDR 10 (the 10% reduction and addition could be ignored for simplicity). When slicing, DR 5 is simply DR 10, with no min/max DR considerations.

Quote:
Great ideas!
Thanks! There are some issues at the extremes, like very weak people getting a comparatively huge damage bonus from slicing, but it seems workable. I'm concerned about realism, however. I think it works, but it would be nice to hear from somebody with a stronger background than me in this kind of thing. I believe the bonus damage and reduced armor divisor cancel out from a balance perspective, although hearing more on that would certainly be helpful!
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: Slicing vs Hacking

A Slicing weapon like the Katana and Scimitar is lethal as hell on unarmed targets, or ones that do not use metal armor. A quick stroke can gut a man in one slice, whereas a broad sword would only cut some and give heavy bludgeoning damage.

But slicing swords most often require high skill to use them effectively.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Slicing vs Hacking

From the studies I've read, there is no practical difference between a "hacking" cut and a slicing cut.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: Slicing vs Hacking

Quote:
Originally Posted by KjetilKverndokken View Post
A Slicing weapon like the Katana and Scimitar is lethal as hell on unarmed targets, or ones that do not use metal armor. A quick stroke can gut a man in one slice, whereas a broad sword would only cut some and give heavy bludgeoning damage.
I don't think so Tim.

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But slicing swords most often require high skill to use them effectively.
Really? Source?
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:15 PM   #7
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Default Re: Slicing vs Hacking

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjard View Post
From the studies I've read, there is no practical difference between a "hacking" cut and a slicing cut.
I would like to read those...

A slicing cut drags the curved edge over a part, and therefore gives the weapon longer touching time then one that hits with part of its blade.
So slicing weapons therefor cuts normally deeper as it utilizes more of the blade on one spot.
There have been sword tests on this, a broadsword could lob of the same thickness of the test dummies, but needed more brute force behind the swing then the katana did with much less force behind it.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: Slicing vs Hacking

Quote:
Originally Posted by KjetilKverndokken View Post
A slicing cut drags the curved edge over a part, and therefore gives the weapon longer touching time then one that hits with part of its blade. So slicing weapons therefor cuts normally deeper as it utilizes more of the blade on one spot.
This only works if there's enough force to also push the cutting blade deeper into the tissue. You know, like if you were using it like a slicing blade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KjetilKverndokken View Post
There have been sword tests on this, a broadsword could lob of the same thickness of the test dummies, but needed more brute force behind the swing then the katana did with much less force behind it.
Source?
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: Slicing vs Hacking

Slicing weapons are quite lethal. They are great for executions; a skilled swordsman can make a scimatar swift and merciful or slow and painful depending on the will of the shiek who ordered it(Al-queda go in for slow and painful of course; that's just their way).

They are also good for war. Europeans during the Great Mutiny were terrified of the local cavalry swords. Not terrified enough to interfere with their duties in most cases, but terrifying enough to make said duties scarier. For one thing, Asian horsemen at that time were usually better then Europeans, and put more work into it. Their swords were properly sharpened for instance.

Kukris are slicing weapons, but they are designed to put a lot of weight on the first incision; the blade's arrangement concentrates about 130 pounds of Gurkha concentrated at a single point which explains some of the terrible wounds these could inflict.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Slicing vs Hacking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post



Really?
You can just swing with a curved sword like any other blade, but it would not have the same effect.
Curved swords need more motion behind them in the swing; you have to learn how to bend the wrist of the hand as you strike, in tune with the whole body.
A straight bladed sword need no such thing, though one can try to use the same maneuvers, but as its straight, it will not get the same cutting power, and a straight cut will be more effective in the end for it.

Nice vid, though it does only prove that one can slice through meat with a bastard sword (also easier to do with meat that have its fluid removed that helps to stop some of the effect from a power blow like that). But it aint the same as gutting, then the straight sword would get the best effect by using the tip of its blade, and not the edge.

And my name aint Tim ;-)
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