Targetting and damaging the face/skull

[Heygutt]

I am unsure about how it would work with the GURPS system if you for instance kick with your leg or fire a bullet towards an opponent and targetting the face. If the hit is successful would the bullet then go through the skull or just damage the face with Wounding modifer X1? And the same goes for the kick to the face. Do you do Wounding x1 to the face or wounding x4 for the skull?

This part is somewhat unclear. I`d say that if you shoot or kick someone in the face you`d hit them in the skull, but the face is just a part of it. A friend of mine argues about that if you target an opponents face with a gun you do the x1 on the face, and im not talking about a glancing hit, this is a direct successful hit to the face, it should penetrate through the head! Any thoughts?

[nik1979]

another way to look at it is, why doesn't the face have a DR2 like a skull (or a pain modifier). Getting hit at the back of the head (DR2 and x4 dmg modifier) compared to getting hit at the face could use clearer definition.

Skull is -7 (access from the front via the top of the head) to hit compared to the Face which is -5. Isn't this just a difference of facing? From behind wouldn't these penalties change?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Skull is -7 (access from the front via the top of the head) to hit compared to the Face which is -5. Isn't this just a difference of facing? From behind wouldn't these penalties change?

Yes. See MA p. 137.

[Gnomasz]

Brain isn't hidden behind face, so why would hit to the face damage it? (If you're not sure, look at this picture. "Why isn't hit to the face damaging neck" would be better question, IMO). I would allow players to hit brain with an imp/pi/tbb through the head, from below (behind the jaw), but i think it'd be at least as difficult as targetting the eyes.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gnomasz

Brain isn't hidden behind face, so why would hit to the face damage it? (If you're not sure, look at this picture. "Why isn't hit to the face damaging neck" would be better question, IMO). I would allow players to hit brain with an imp/pi/tbb through the head, from below (behind the jaw), but i think it'd be at least as difficult as targetting the eyes.

If you go in for the complex stuff, a hit to the face with an impaling, piercing or tight-beam burning (basically shooting or stabbing) weapons has a 1/6 chance of hitting the brain. This is an official optional rule from MA p. 137.

As a matter of even more complexity, yes, I'd allow attacks to the brain without going through the Skull DR at -9 and rule that the fact that it wasn't through the Eye was essentially a special effect. So stabs under the chin and up the brain would be allowed, if someone wanted to take the -9 penalty. After all, he could have stabbed him in the eye with the same benefit and an added chance of blinding, so it's not as if it's unbalancing.

[nik1979]

Thanks Icelander :D

[Heygutt]

Wel i pictured myself the scenario where you as (for instance) the martial artis with 18 in karate or whatever are standing in a line at the mall, a thug moves behind you fiddling in your pocket, you spot him, push him away and does a kick to his face with your back at him (Kick opponent behind you -2 AND the -7 penalty for skull if so desired even though he aims for the face. Id say he would get the x4 modifer because the brain is in the head and you are technically hitting the head, only at the front, nose etc. The point is kicking the face because it looks very, very nasty, but the fun is blown away at a x1 mod and not x4 considering a human with 1d thrust. You increase skill to target places where it hurts! x3, x4, pressure point etc.

Most knockouts are done to the chin, nose and face overall. Im a martial artist myself and kicking your shin bone into an opponents face drops him to the ground like a bag of potetoes! As goes for targetting anywhere at the head because the brain bounces around in the skull like a jellyfish on speed by getting a blow to the head, no matter from where the blow connects. Anyways the face section states it is for throwing liquids to deal more damage, but does not say what happen if you use bludgeoning or chrushing etc. Is this GURPS way of being difficult making the GM invent rules to it? I know I`d allow it because its logical. As Gnomasz wrote I`d only allow damage to the neck is the blow was powerful enough or the dodger critically failed or the kicker would critcally succeed. Either way he would be dead lol.

I have not checked the MA book but 1/6 is way to low a chance of success to damage brain.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Heygutt

Wel i pictured myself the scenario where you as (for instance) the martial artis with 18 in karate or whatever are standing in a line at the mall, a thug moves behind you fiddling in your pocket, you spot him, push him away and does a kick to his face

Kids, don't try this at the mall: Petty theft in progress is considered justification for calling the police, not aggravated assault, in most jurisdictions.

Originally Posted by Heygutt

Id say he would get the x4 modifer because the brain is in the head and you are technically hitting the head, only at the front, nose etc. The point is kicking the face because it looks very, very nasty, but the fun is blown away at a x1 mod and not x4 considering a human with 1d thrust. You increase skill to target places where it hurts! x3, x4, pressure point etc.

Most knockouts are done to the chin, nose and face overall. Im a martial artist myself and kicking your shin bone into an opponents face drops him to the ground like a bag of potetoes! As goes for targetting anywhere at the head because the brain bounces around in the skull like a jellyfish on speed by getting a blow to the head, no matter from where the blow connects.

You're missing or underestimating the importance of two rules relating to the Face:

Relatively light blows (anything that inflicts a Shock penalty) to the Face, Nose, and Jaw cause the recipient to roll vs HT to avoid being knocked flat and stunned for possibly many seconds. This roll is at a -5 penalty for the Face and -6 for the Jaw if the blow causes a Major Wound, which is almost a guaranteed drop on an average HT 10 person with a good chance of taking down a HT 12 athlete. If that HT roll, including penalties if any, fails by 5 or more, or fails critically, then the result is a total knockout instead. (all from Campaigns, p 420 except the Jaw in MA) ... This is how GURPS represents things like "it hurts more" and "it bounces the brain around in the skull," without causing additional injury, which is IMHO perfectly realistic. I've been hit in the face and hit over the back of the head a bunch of times, and I can tell you with confidence that I've only been seriously hurt by the latter. UFC allows blows to the face but not the base of the skull for this reason. As a martial artist, you've probably been hit in the face many times yourself; sure it hurts, but do you really feel that you were losing 4-24 HP (recovery time: days to weeks, average damage comparable to getting shot in the chest with a 9mm pistol) each time it happened?

Originally Posted by Heygutt

As Gnomasz wrote I`d only allow damage to the neck is the blow was powerful enough or the dodger critically failed or the kicker would critcally succeed. Either way he would be dead lol.

Critical hits to the Face use the Critical Head Blow table instead of the regular one, which includes some stuff like instant death.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

If you consider gunshots to the front of the head, the skull area occupies at most half of the area that can be hit. A hit from about mid-nose down would probably not enter the skull. That's a good amount of area. And that's a "best case" scenario. At other angles, there is even less area (Possibly none) where you could hit the "face" and have it continue through to hit the skull. Gunshots that hit the head but do not hit the brain are fairly common (For personal annecdotes, a few people I knew a little had been shot through the face without it hitting the brain).

To put it more in perspective, the "vitals" occupy maybe half of the torso (Probably a bit less, actually). You obviously shouldn't assume that blows to the torso get the modifier for vitals because it's "in the torso."

For crushing blows like a kick, it gets even worse. Blows to the face have a good amount of flesh and bone between any impacts and the brain itself, much more than a blow directly to the brain area of the skull. It's a relatively hard area, and blows there cause no more serious tissue or bone damage than blows elsewhere. There are no important vital organs in the face itself (Discounting eyes, which are a seperate location), so there's nothing to make the damage that is done more serious. Because of those reasons, I would imagine, blows to the face do not cause more actual damage.

However, it's a rather complex, sensitive, and rather awareness-centered area of the body, so damage there might be felt more. In addition, serious blows are going to have some concussive effect on the brain. Because of those reasons, injuries to the face can cause stunning and unconciousness significantly easier than blows to most other locations. Jaw and nose are even worse.

What happens if a experienced martial-arter kick a guy full in the face (Say, the nose or mouth)? Well, there's a good chance he goes down, and his face is probably pretty bloodied. Fair chance of being knocked down, fair chance of not getting up right away, and probably very groggy once he gets up and the adrenaline is worn off.

So to put it more in perspective, considers what happens if you treat face blows as brain hits. Same martial-artist doing a good 1d damage, on an average military-fit 10HP 10HT person. Oh, and I'm going to be generous and assume the face now gets the skull's 2DR with your idea, otherwise bump everything down 2 points worse:

One third of the time (Roll of 1 or 2), you do no real damage. It was a glancing blow, and didn't strike solidly enough to cause any damage. Kind of silly for a hit to the face. But whatever, we'll roll with it.

On a 3, you end up doing 4 injury to the brain. Guy has a 50-50 chance of being standing after the hit, and if not, is probably on the ground for several seconds before he's able to act again. About 5% of the time, he'll be unconcious or unresponsive for at least 15 minutes. Recovery time: 1 week.

On a 4, you've done serious injury. There's almost no chance he's still standing, and a very good chance (95%) that he's unconcious for at least 15 minutes. Being a major wound, there is the possibility of hemoraging in the brain (Strictly speaking, GM's call, probably an HT roll to see if it starts). If so, it is a serious life-threatening condition, and will significantly worsen his condition, leading to possible death or critical brain damage in about 10 minutes, with surgery likely being required to stabalize the patient. Assuming he survives the immediate injury, there's about a 40% chance he has lasting neurological imparement, which occasionally will be permanent. Immediate recovery time: 1-2 weeks with hospital care. Full faculty recovery: 1-3 months, possibly never.

On a 5 or 6, you've done critical levels of injury. The victim will have to be hospitalized immediately. 95% of the time he is rendered unconcious immediately, and in all cases he loses conciousness within moments, likely before he's able to act at all. All above conditions apply, but worse. Brain hemoraging is more likely and more dangerous, with death being possible in as little as 4-6 minutes. If bleeding does begin, surgery is almost certainly necessary to save the patient's life, but the chances of being able to complete the surgery in time are iffy; A expert surgeon at skill 15 would require 6-12 minutes in a well-equipped and fully-staffed emergency room to have a 50-50 chance of stopping the bleeding. Assuming he started at the moment of injury, there is about a 50%+ chance the patient died on the opperating table before the bleeding could be stopped. About half the rest of the time, he would be in a critical state and requires temporary life support while further surgery stabalizes (Significantly easier surgery due to lowered time constraints). Assuming a more realistic time between injury and begining of surgery (Say, 10 minutes, give or take), odds drop even further, dropping well below 50% chance of surviving. Possibility of permanent brain injury as above. Immediate recovery: 2-6 weeks with full medical care. Full faculty recovery: 1-3 months, possibly never.

(This all comes from using the realistic injury rules options from Martial Arts and the more detailed medical-care rules from Biotech. In a game that focuses on the combat and ignores that stuff, just pay attention to the immediate effects regarding unconciousness).

Gets even worse if the person completely sacrifices his defenses to put all his strength into the blow (Yay All-Out Attack: Strong!). In that case, the victim will drop dead 1/12 of the time the martial-arts guy punches him in the face. Outright immediate dead. Not unconcious and mortally wounded, not a CPR-and-immediate-surgery, but completely and irrevocably dead, get the coroner and a priest. And about a quarter of the other times, he's like the last entry above, but worse. This also applies if you give the face a x4 without giving it the skull's 2 DR. Which would also make All-Out Attack: Strong even more brutal (Immediate death about 1/5 of the time!).

So if you've been punched full-on in the face three times or more by fairly strong or competent people, and have not been hospitalized in critical condition for a week-plus for a third of them, chances are it didn't have the brain's x4.

By comparison, a blow to the jaw by the same guy has a ~70% chance of putting them to the ground and a ~20% chance of being unconcious, while a blow to the nose has a 80% chance of putting them to the ground and a 35% chance of being unconcious (Or at least, down on the ground holding a broken nose and unable to act). Anyone put to the ground will likely be there a few seconds before being able to act at all. Neither require hospitalization (Stitches, setting the nose, or a dentist might be good, but probably not strictly necessary), and the injuries will naturally heal over a range from a couple days to a couple weeks, though they may be apparant a fair while longer. Regular face blows (Cheek, etc) are just a touch less. Keep in mind that "unconcious" in this case doesn't just mean down on the ground, dazed, for several seconds. That's what happens when they're knocked down. Unconcious in this case means either completely unresponsive, or completely unable to act in any situation no matter how important, for about 15 minutes or longer.

(As a note, everyting here was also ignoring the possibility of critical hits, which stand a fair chance of making the injuries significantly worse)

I'm thinking face-blows are good where they are, personally.

[Heygutt]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Kids, don't try this at the mall: Petty theft in progress is considered justification for calling the police, not aggravated assault, in most jurisdictions.

I guess I didnt elaborate that senario very well or good enough to "justify" such an act. Consider the mall being located in an outlaw city, trash everywhere and no official government other than gang leaders. The thug tries to steal or kill you in the prosess. You kill him first and people stop to watch, then goes on with their lives because it is fairly common in that part of town, like in a western tavern brawl between to guys playing poker. It was settled, fair enough now people can go on with their own business. But other parts of the town may provoke an entire gang for touching one of their members in public.