Why are shields reach 1, and why can't they block in close combat?

[bea_bumble]

Looking at a picture like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:38...ense_4182..jpg

...these bucklers seem pretty short to me. Those swords are reach 1 weapons. The buckler, by contrast, seems like something you might make great use of in close combat, and is certainly not something one could use to strike at a foe at reach 1. Yet, in GURPS, that buckler would be a Reach 1 weapon that could not be used to block in close combat, and would apply a penalty of -1 to DX-based actions.

Can anyone explain this to me? Is it a balance issue? Is there something I am misunderstanding about the utility of shields? Why are shields reach 1 weapons and why can't they block in close combat?

[Kale]

I think it is more an averaging of the different sizes and shapes of shield into one rule. Personally, for a tiny buckler like that I'd say it has maybe a -1 penalty to be used in close combat and would count as a brass knuckle with brawling.

[Blood Legend]

Originally Posted by bea_bumble

Looking at a picture like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:38...ense_4182..jpg

...these bucklers seem pretty short to me. Those swords are reach 1 weapons. The buckler, by contrast, seems like something you might make great use of in close combat, and is certainly not something one could use to strike at a foe at reach 1. Yet, in GURPS, that buckler would be a Reach 1 weapon that could not be used to block in close combat, and would apply a penalty of -1 to DX-based actions.

Can anyone explain this to me? Is it a balance issue? Is there something I am misunderstanding about the utility of shields? Why are shields reach 1 weapons and why can't they block in close combat?

Because hitting with a shield isn't alway a shield bash, bucklers are not all shields, small knifes are reach one (take out a pocket knife) and hitting someone with the narrow sharpened edge of a shield wasn't exactly an uncommon practice. Reach 1 is being able to reach into the hex next to you, not impossible to do if you stand on the edge of your proverbial hex and reach in with something in your hand.

Close combat is http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/7/15/

Warning: potty language.

[bea_bumble]

Of course, not all shields are bucklers. But my question is, why are they all modeled the same?

And in any case, a small knife isn't Reach 1... It's Reach C,1. They can be used easily in close combat, including parrying. A block is not a parry, but I'm just not sure I understand why it is unusable in close combat.

[Blood Legend]

Originally Posted by bea_bumble

Of course, not all shields are bucklers. But my question is, why are they all modeled the same?

And in any case, a small knife isn't Reach 1... It's Reach C,1. They can be used easily in close combat, including parrying. A block is not a parry, but I'm just not sure I understand why it is unusable in close combat.

Same reason a longsword cant be. If you get behind the damaging part, it cant hurt you. Get hugged by a guy and see how easily you can hurt him by swinging or thrusting your sword correctly. You just cant. You need to do something else. Swing and Thrust damage is for conventional use of whatever weapon you're using, to do anything wierd or out of the ordinary you need a technique for close combat or a different grip on your weapon.

[trooper6]

by the way, those fellows in your wood block are probably using Rapiers to fight...which is a reach 1,2 weapon.

So the perspective might be a tad off.

Also, think of close combat as being all up in someone's grill. You can't really block effectively when your all all face to face. Notice the bucklers are held out to full extension (i.e. Range 1).

I'm looking at the Sword and Buckler style from Martial Arts...and noticed they include the Armed Grapple (Buckler) technique...so that might help you out some.

[malloyd]

I'd be willing to buy an argument that "bucklers" can get so small they no longer use the Shield skill. You'd probably use them with Brawling, treat them as brass knuckles for attacks and parries (or blocks if you insist, though at this point I don't see why GURPS uses a different name for these) wouldn't call for the rules for hurting yourself - adapt the rules for gauntlets perhaps.

[Polydamas]

Light Shields (what the non-Gurps world calls bucklers) probably should have reach C, or possibly reach C, 1 like a small knife.

But with a larger Shield or Buckler, you often strike with the leading edge, and the shield is large enough to be awkward in many Close Combat situations. Reach 1 seems like a pretty good approximation.

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by trooper6

by the way, those fellows in your wood block are probably using Rapiers to fight...which is a reach 1,2 weapon.

So the perspective might be a tad off.

Also, think of close combat as being all up in someone's grill. You can't really block effectively when your all all face to face. Notice the bucklers are held out to full extension (i.e. Range 1).

I'm looking at the Sword and Buckler style from Martial Arts...and noticed they include the Armed Grapple (Buckler) technique...so that might help you out some.

It doesn't look like a wood block print to me and since it is probably one of the copies from the late 14th C those aren't rapiers. They look to be solid single handed swords.

One of the things you can do with a buckler is to place it against your opponent's weapon and push it into him while changing the range if you have a shorter weapon. This allows you to control the longer weapon and move to a point where it is less effective against you and you can attack with your shorter weapon. If you are face to face (range C) the strikes can not come from in front of you but have to come from an angle off to one side or the other or possibly as thrusts from up high or down low. As long as you keep the buckler on the weapon or the arm holding the weapon you take a lot of options for hitting you out.

[bea_bumble]

Originally Posted by trooper6

by the way, those fellows in your wood block are probably using Rapiers to fight...which is a reach 1,2 weapon.

So the perspective might be a tad off.

Also, think of close combat as being all up in someone's grill. You can't really block effectively when your all all face to face. Notice the bucklers are held out to full extension (i.e. Range 1).

I'm looking at the Sword and Buckler style from Martial Arts...and noticed they include the Armed Grapple (Buckler) technique...so that might help you out some.

Thanks, but I'm not looking for help with the Sword-and-Buckler style... I am just curious about the reasoning behind the design decision to be unable to block in close combat, and hoping someone provide some insight into it. Of course, close combat is being all up in someone's grill, but why does that make blocking impossible when parrying remains possible? Why are blocks treated differently from parries at all?

Blood Legend, at least if using Martial Arts rules, a longsword or other Reach 1+ weapon can be used in close combat at a penalty of -4 x its standard reach (or longest reach? I don't remember offhand which it is). It parries at only -2. What I'm curious about is, why didn't shields get a similar treatment in Martial Arts? Also, close combat is not being hugged by an attacker. That is grappling.

Thanks for the responses so far, everyone.