Help bury my problems with GURPS?

[Venatius]

My relationship with GURPS for a long time has been one of curiously eying each other across the room at various social functions. Rather than draw out this metaphor any further in a misguided attempt at humor, I'll just say that as I've looked at it more and more, I've seen more and more in it that really fits my preferences very well. However, at the same time, I have some problems with it. Needless to say, I'd be thrilled to find out these are misunderstandings or stem from a lack of resources/information on my part. I WANT to be wrong about the issues I have with the system, because that makes it that much better for my gaming needs. So, let me itemize 'em, and hopefully some of my GURPS seniors will be able to smack my concerns with a shovel and bury 'em, or at least suggest workarounds. What I say may appear a little inflammatory, but keep in mind these are all my subjective, possibly mistaken, impressions as someone fairly new to the system. Once again, I'd love to be wrong. My intention is not to insult or belittle, either. There's a LOT in GURPS that I like, and I'm definitely being rapidly seduced to its side. But a few things have been bugging me. In roughly descending order of frustration...

#1: A universal RPG with a non-universal magic system?

That GURPS has a singular magic "system" has really gotten my goat. Virtually all other systems of the kind that I can think of allow you to simply use the existing trait structures to "build" how magic works for a particular game. A universal game, in my opinion, does well to embrace "effects-based" mechanics. Those effects can be achieved by whatever means, of which magic is just one possible option. From there you'd just add whatever modifiers appropriately reflect how magic works. While GURPS' magic system is fine if your game world's magic happens to match the core magic system or one of its alternates, if it doesn't, you're either out of luck or forced to go wobbling out into a bunch of hazy and potentially wildly unbalanced house-ruling. Another problem with this segregated magic system is the lack of crossover. Sure, there are (somewhat vague) rules in Magic for making advantages work as spells. The reverse, however, isn't true. If you have a spell you don't want to work as a spell, again it seems like you're out of luck. For some, the answer is easy to find in advantages. Lightning bolt? Just make it an innate attack. But name one advantage that, for instance, lets you function as a human air filter, like the spell Purify Air does. Sure, that's a silly thing to want, but I mostly cite it as a convenient random example. Besides, a system worth its salt shouldn't judge whether what you want to create is silly. If I want Air Purifier Man to purify the air with his mutant lungs, then darn it all, the game should let him. It sounds like 3E had a "Knacks" system for this, and although I hear it was awfully kludgy, I'm really feeling the hole its passing has left.

#2: Lack of vehicle design benchmarks

For the most part, GURPS' approach to items is fairly realistic. That's fine and well. If you want to put in a new vehicle, look up its stats and copy 'em in. Want a setting to feature an unusual weapon? Just give it some stats and an appropriate price tag. No big deal. The big problem comes from unique or custom-made gear. Let's suppose, for example, you're running a fanciful mecha game a'la Gundam, in which each vehicle is as unique a 'character' as its pilot. There are no real world stats to borrow. There is no benchmark for cost or value. There is no way to do anything more than loosely eyeball them for comparable power and capabilities. Most games handle designing objects' traits little differently than that of characters, it seems. You can just buy up their HP, damage, etc., usually getting a discount of some sort for it being in an object. And GURPS kind of approaches that. But in this case, you aren't just creating a catalog of pre-designed hardware for characters to go out and buy or be assigned. In such a game, each one of these vehicles, be they spaceships, mecha, or whatever else, are unique creations. Half the fun is in the player getting to design them in loving detail (to whatever realism/detail level the game type demands). But without some kind of budget or framework, how is this pulled off? I've heard talk of designing vehicles as characters, but in GURPS, vehicles have traits characters can't normally acquire. Unusual body locations, range, combustibility/fragility/explod...ability(?), handling (a big one, there), etc. all have no way to be measured or priced that I can detect, which throws budget-based design halfway out the window and unpleasantly impaled on the broken glass. The problem with designing weaponry and other gear is similar, if less extreme. There are modifiers/limitations for most facets. But what about needing to ready a weapon between attacks, or the propensity to get stuck, or being a fencing weapon, or other qualities? These seem to be significant omissions. Why buy a pick when you can "build" one to the same damage and have it inexplicably lack that tendency to get stuck? I also notice that, while they have the option of DR, custom made objects seem to conspicuously lack HP, which renders it puzzlingly moot. The largest problem here, vehicles, sounds like it may be solved when the disturbingly omitted Vehicle Design System book comes out, but all the talk I hear about it seems to focus more on "realistic" vehicle creation rather than setting budgets and values, which worries me a bit.

#3: "Defense" doesn't defend AGAINST anything?

This seems to be a common problem with any "roll-under" system (a mechanic I find to be almost belligerently inefficient). All right. So the attacker rolls to see if their attack is even conceivably going to stab/swing/shoot/flamethrower where their target is standing. But after that, the attacker's input inexplicably ceases to matter. The defender rolls against their own defense. This is baffling, considering GURPS, unlike some roll-under systems (I'm looking fondly and shaking my head at you, Call of Cthulhu), actually does have mechanics for opposed rolls. But despite that, attack and defend in combat seem to occupy totally seperate rooms, and the only seriously relevant factor seems to be defense. Sure, the attack roll helps determine whether or not the attacker is so inept that they make the defender's job extra-easy, but avoiding a clumsy swing of a tire iron from a cornered hoodlum is as easy as escaping some elaborate multidimensional ultimate martial arts strike from a Lotus Master of the Fivefold Whoozits. I realize there's Deceptive Attack, but that leaves ranged attacks out in the cold, and it seems awfully inconvenient to have to apply some variable penalty to every attack launched by a skilled attacker.

#4: No Signature? No problem!

I'm puzzled that having No Signature does not have any listed impact on defending against an attack whatsoever. If someone were to, say, attack you with a completely invisible sword, wouldn't that just be a wee bit challenging to defend against? (Bonus points to anyone who knows where this example is coming from) This is an incredibly minor nitpick though. Even if it turns out I'm not just missing some cross-referenced rule from elsewhere in the books and that's really how it is, it's no biggie.

#5: "Realistic" budgeting

Most items in GURPS seem to be based more or less on their real-world value. Okay, vehicles seem to be overpriced even for brand new never-driven-off-the-lot toys, but I digress. The problem is the lack of allotment for "balanced" as opposed to "realistic" item value. Let's say you're hypothetically running a classic fantasy game. Items in such a setting are by and large priced based on their actual mechanical value, using generally coherent benchmarks. But there's no allotment for that here. You COULD figure out a point-value-to-$ exchange rate, but for existing items, that would require painstakingly reverse-engineering them into advantages/limitations/modifiers, and purely guessing/handwaving on the variables that aren't allotted in these. Wouldn't it have been better to use "balanced" prices by default and just tack on the "realistic" ones in addition? This presents another pain for custom item design, as adding something with no real-world counterpart to the catalog requires a complete shot in the dark on pricing. At least with pricing based on point value, you'd have something to work from.

It's very late here. Additional consequential gripes to be added if it turns out I've overlooked any. As you can see, wordy though it is, it's not a long list, and only the first two items are of any real worry to me. I'd be much obliged to anyone who can tell me I'm an idiot for thinking these things and demonstrate why.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Venatius

#1: A universal RPG with a non-universal magic system?

You want Thaumatology for this. They went with the standard system for the core books, but this baby has all the non-standard goodies you want.

Or you could just take an advantage and slap a -10% Magic modifier on it. That's an option listed in the core books. Still a good idea to buy Thaumatology, though - there's an entire chapter on "Magic as Powers" (which is what you seem to want.)

*hands shovel*

[xeniac]

To: #1: A universal RPG with a non-universal magic system?

Why do you Think GURPS has only one "Magic System"?

The Standard to cast Magic is having the Magery Advantage and buy some "Spell Skills", some of these have prerequisites to other Skills and it works very vell. This is described in full length in the Basic Set.

There is also "Ritual Magic, Wild Magic and much, much more" described in GURPS Magic, also includign Potions, Enchantments, and so on. GURPS Thaumatiology adds many Variants to this Pool.

Maybe you don't need Magic at all. Maybe all you need are Super-Human Powers, or Psi-Powers. Don't worry GURPS has it for you!

--
Why i recommend GURPS:
GURPS is Generic AND Universal. You have a lot of possibilities, but nobody persuades you to use them. GURPS has rules to track travelcosts, to learn skills between gaming sessions, and much much more. Doesn't fit you campaign? Don't use it!

GURPS als has a very good and balanced Magic System. It does'nt fit you need? Skip it, and build you own. But be warned: I've met some people that tried to migrate Magic from an other System to GURPS and failed. Balancing Magic is a piece of Art.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Venatius

#2: Lack of vehicle design benchmarks

I think you want VDS, which isn't omitted, just slow. It's still in the process of coming out.

Until then, there's at least GURPS Spaceships, which fills some of the void.

#4: "Realistic" budgeting

But how do you decide when something is useful and when it is not? If you price guns based on their usefulness, while it might benefit your fantasy games, modern games and swashbuckling games collapse. Part of the reasons people used the weapons they did was price, and that's realistically reflected in the GURPS price-tags.

You can't, you shouldn't, bother to reverse engineer this and turn it into Hero. It's too much work. The three solutions I've generally seen are:

• Eliminate $s and charge points for everything. Fairly extreme, but I've seen it work in some supers games.
• Stop worrying and learn to love the bomb. Just leave the prices where they are, and learn how it naturally balances with the system. Dungeon Fantasy and Action both use this approach, and both work quite nicely.
• Unusual Backgrounds. In a post, Kromm mentioned that in his supers game (or a hypothetical one), he charged UBs to gain access to guns. If there's a particular aspect of the equipment in the game you want to "rebalance," charging someone points to access and understand those helps balance the scales. You'll note that High TL is effectively a variation on this theme.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Venatius

#1: A universal RPG with a non-universal magic system?

#2: Lack of vehicle design benchmarks

#4: "Realistic" budgeting

#1:
Thaumatology address most of this. The downside is your still limited to the spells in Magic.

#2
The VDS is on the way. There is already a spaceship design system I think.

#4
The value of a dollar in GURPS is not something you should obsess about any more than the value of a charachter point. The dollar in gurps terms is an arbitrary unit of currency. Dont expect items to match real world values simply because no one can predict what will happen in the real world. (i.e. 100$ in 1986 when GURPS was first put out is now worth 200$ in todays money. Thats a change of 100% so far. The RAW difference in TL 8-1980 and 9-2025 is only 50%)

Nymdok

[xeniac]

i always understood those prices as "average prices". Many factors can modify those prices, if you want: VAT, availability, Season, and of course the Reaction-Roll ;)
For a modern Campaign: It's Christmas Time! Mobile Phones are much cheaper now. Europe has greater taxes than the U.S, don't go shopping in europe, if possible: buy it in singapure!

For Sci-Fi: Planet AU-24 is full with Gold, so there it's only worth 25% of the Standard-GURPS-Value. Buy it cheap, sell in on Earth!

Fantasy: The breath-taking, big boobed, elven-sorceress always get's an discount for the stuff she buys. But don't forget to double the merchant prices in the first place.

Second to say: The "usefulness" of a product isn't always related to it's price. A tin-opener saves you from starving and just costs you 5 Bucks. The big advantage of the Kalschnikov is her ceap price and kills people as good as any other rifle.

[aesir23]

Let me reiterate the support for GURPS Thaumatology.

Syntactic Realm Magic and Path/Book magic are completely separate systems that share little with the default Spell magic.

Magic as powers is a workable alternative that many people successfully use.

[xeniac]

#3: No Signature? No problem!
The only invisible wapon i know is a monowhip, This kind of weapon needs special handling for many reasons. So let's try this:

Imagine someone attacks you with an invisible sword. You should apply the Advices in B394 (Visibility)
If you don't know that the Attacker has an invisible Weapon, or you aren't aware that you will be attacked, you can't defend yourserf. Point.

If you see your foe and know that he has an invisible weapon you brain predicts the current Position with ease. IMHO aslong as you can see the Hands of the wielder, you can parry the Attack.

Oh in GURPS an invisible magic item also makes the wielder invisible (See GURPS Magic).

[panton41]

Originally Posted by xeniac

I always understood those prices as "average prices". Many factors can modify those prices, if you want: VAT, availability, Season, and of course the Reaction-Roll ;)

For a modern Campaign: It's Christmas Time! Mobile Phones are much cheaper now. Europe has greater taxes than the U.S, don't go shopping in europe, if possible: buy it in Singapore!

For Sci-Fi: Planet AU-24 is full with Gold, so there it's only worth 25% of the Standard-GURPS-Value. Buy it cheap, sell in on Earth!

Fantasy: The breath-taking, big boobed, elven-sorceress always get's an discount for the stuff she buys. But don't forget to double the merchant prices in the first place..

My Elves tend to be breathtaking, but thin and proportioned to that build, thus rarely big-boobed, but to each their own. I'm not a fan of super-skinny women with a chest so big it raises their center of gravity. Put a little meat on their bones and we'll talk, but I digress...



I agree with the statement the GURPS dollar isn't a final price. In settings where it's allowed by in-game laws using a reaction roll to get a discount (or not) on items is a classic example of its use, ditto with a Merchant roll (though I'd only allow one or the other and not both). My only thing about the seasonal availability is I would say it depends greatly on the item and the tech level. (Fresh fruit in the middle of winter before TL6 isn't going to happen, but afterward anything's possible.)

I like to think taxes are a part of the listed price, even if its not realistic to the listed price, just to make things flow better. Unless, of course, I'm trying to do a game with brutal realism and wanting to be a vindictive SOB on top of it ("You want that pistol? That's $500, plus 7% Indiana sales tax, $40 for a handgun license, $50 for a magazine. Of course the carrying case and lock are extra and I can't sell it to you without them...")

It would be nice to have some quick and dirty rules to game how much certain items (or even class of items) might cost at different locations and if they can even be found at all. I know its a very game world dependent thing, but even a Dungeon Fantasy book for that would be nice, just as a starting point.

[Anaraxes]

simply use the existing trait structures to "build" how magic works for a particular game. A universal game, in my opinion, does well to embrace "effects-based" mechanics.

GURPS has this, and clearly you know what they are from references in your text: Advantages with Enhancements and Limitations. Thaumatology has often been cited in the thread, and it's a fine book, but if this is the style of rule you like, then you really want Powers, which expands upon constructing powers.

But name one advantage that, for instance, lets you function as a human air filter

Depends on the effects you want {shrug}. Control (Air) -- always the easy way out. Immunity to Metabolic Hazards, perhaps with Affects Others. Or Does Not Breathe.

It sounds like 3E had a "Knacks" system

3e Knacks were a way to put a CP cost on a spell straight out of the skill-based magic system, to let you use it as a Johnny One-Spell without Magery or any prereqs. The CP cost was based on the enchantment cost as a recall, with a factor, so you 'd look up Flight and find out that it costs you 20 CP. Voila, a character that can fly. It was sort of the reverse of what you were asking for -- not building spells out of advantages and tweaking them, but buying the existing spells as-is. There are certain worlds or genres that this system was intended to fit. It always reminded me of Orson Scott Card's "Alvin Maker" world.

a completely invisible sword

I'm not sure you'd buy this with No Signature, actually. No Sig is a minor effect intended to take away the presumed default special effects of the glowing power around your hands as you cast your blaster bolt.

As for the reference, no doubt there's more than one, but the first thing that popped into my mind was Garrett's Lord D'Arcy dueling on a bridge. Though the "Tarnhelm Effect" was more like Avoidance than Invisibility, as I recall.

The problem is the lack of allotment for "balanced" as opposed to "realistic" item value.

Buy gear with CPs, as is typical for the supers genre. CPs are the (supposedly) balanced cost system; gurpsbucks are not.

Real-world prices aren't "balanced". Horse buggies didn't get cheaper just because we have cars; in fact, they'd be more expensive now if you commissioned one to be hand-crafted for you. An Aston Martin V12 Vantage doesn't cost 50% more than a Ford Mustang because it has a 50% higher top speed.

The economy doesn't care about "balance", but supply and demand. If you try to put prices on mundane gear for "balance", you'll simply create an unbelievable world. See D&D -- in which case just go for the Dungeon Fantasy line, and leave the world as its logical stub once you do that, just Ye Olde Generic Tavern and Shoppe where you can buy your items at balanced prices and ignore the effect on rest of the world as it's irrelevant to the game anyway.

As often gets mentioned in any thread about the price of an advantage, there's no such thing as a price universally balanced on the basis of utility, because exact utility depends on the individual game world. Unaging is a classic example. Or Vacuum Support in the average fantasy game, where you never leave the surface of a planet. Or True Faith in a mundane, gritty, WWII game without any vampires, zombies or cultists to liven things up.