Role of archers in low-tech parties?

[Refplace]

Shooting from a tree is hard, some covered above but you also have a limited arc of fire since you typically cant move much and you alos have limbs in the way. Big impact on your rate of fire.
However modern deer hunters sometimes shoot from tree stands which are basically canvas seats. A harness could also be used and gives me an interesting idea to add to an Elven Archer style.....
You could make a rope harness that is pretty comfortable and suspend yourself from a tree so you brace yourself against the tree rather then have to hold onto it. And a knife or quick release and your out in an emergency. Maybe acrobatics to land better too.

One thing about ranged combat I was thinking of while reading the Agincourt.
there is an Irish story/myth about a warrior named Cuchalian who delayed an army with a sling. He would kill a few in camp or on the march from cover each day and this delayed the army and lowered morale. Then they went to an honrable combat one on one fight in order to get him to stop. One fight each day until he lost and the army wouldnt move if he would stop killing them. Gave his army time to mobilize and meet them IIRC.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by martinl

However, that is the military viewpoint. From the viewpoint of typical RPG "parties" (a mix of commando, bravo, and bandit), the archer is for ambushes, for having a response to inaccessible enemy missile fire, and attrition of known enemies who start out far away.

What about poison delivery? I don't really believe in Hollywood-style instant-death poisons, but even on a 1-second combat Round scale, there might well be poisons that significantly nerfs the target's ability to move, fight, defend, or think clearly and make reasonable tactical decisions.


And yes, I was surprised to be reminded, in this thread, that in GURPS bodkin arrows have a (2) armour DR divisor.

Bodkin arrows should be better against armour than regular arrows, of course, but it reminds me of the coarse-grainedness of the system.

(Not that making a good weapon-penetration-versus-armour model is easy. The one I use in Sagatafl is better than the one GURPS uses, but works only for medieval weapons (it works for modern weapons/armours the same way AD&D works for roleplaying gaming, one might say), and I haven't yet come up with a different model that feels at all good when used for firearms versus balistic vests.)

[Phoenix42]

Originally Posted by Agramer

actually default 2$ war arrow is barbed arrow.

You're right, of course. I meant the really really evil ones, but as I just realised those are classed as broadhead arrows, like the one in the image, plus barbs. Stick that in a horse's side and the rider will be making control checks from now till christmas...

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/5062683..._Arrow_Tip.jpg

[Sword-dancer]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Since you mention Agincourt:

One might also want to mention that fantasy and low-TL campaigns tend to include horses or similar mounts. This comes in two versions: A mounted archer can laugh his enemy in the face because he can use his crossbow or shortbow and can dictate his range;

reloading a crossbow is not an easy task mounted if at all possible and a shortbow is a lousy weapon for combat use

if he's any good and the fight is in an open field, he can also circle his enemies and shoot from behind, negating his enemies' dodge rolls.

do you really believe that the Warriors wouldn´t change front and stand like toy soldiers in show formation?

If Don't forget that this is essentially what took the Mongols all the way from Mongolia to Austria

i thought they ended in hungary looked at central european country seeing the woods, no place to feed their ponys said thank you and went home.

and what brought the Huns from the Black Sea to the South of France.

nd getting themselves butchered by the Goths as well as the Magyars were butchered or better annihilated by the germans and the turks beaten by the crusaders.
Using a composite bow to ´ve a decent chance to do damage you must go so close to havy cav that one slight miscalculation or a well timed and calculated counterattack ist pure disaster.

Wheras as slid medium foot can encircle themselves and shoot at you at greater range with long and crossbows, in combination with cav who sally at the right moment.

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

reloading a crossbow is not an easy task mounted if at all possible and a shortbow is a lousy weapon for combat use
do you really believe that the Warriors wouldn´t change front and stand like toy soldiers in show formation?

Point is in formation..turning around whole formation makes it stop in spot and it aint advancing anymore toward your lines.

You can use longer bows from horsback,or recurved ones.

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

i thought they ended in hungary looked at central european country seeing the woods, no place to feed their ponys said thank you and went home.

Actually,Khan Died and they went back home to elect new one,as their custom was.Meanwhile they got into quarrels and Europe was saved.

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

and the turks beaten by the crusaders.

If not counting few battles,it was Europeans being beaten by Turks ;)

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

Using a composite bow to ´ve a decent chance to do damage you must go so close to havy cav that one slight miscalculation or a well timed and calculated counterattack ist pure disaster.

Horses werent armoured as much as men were.Though yes..Archers without protection would get stomped by cavalry.

[Sword-dancer]

Originally Posted by Agramer

Point is in formation..turning around whole formation makes it stop in spot and it aint advancing anymore toward your lines..

i didn´t mean´t turning around the whole formation only to redirect the last lines zo form a shieldwall, Karree, testudo etc

You can use longer bows from horsback,or recurved ones.

phoenix42 wrote shortbow or crossbow

Actually,Khan Died and they went back home to elect new one,as their custom was.

which is a nice story but the timeline isn´t supporting that,

If not counting few battles,it was Europeans being beaten by Turks ;)

not by by the sejuqs later by the Ottomans, Outremer hold for a long time.

.Though yes..Archers without protection would get stomped by cavalry

i was answering to mounted archers

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Greetings, all!
It is no big secret that the role of an archer in High Fantasy is different from a role of an archer in normal fantasy/low-tech games. Notably, HF archers are scary R-DPS machines with a RoF exceeding that of some TL5 rifles, and comparable damage. With the proper build, they also have huge range.
However, what about the games with normal point ranges (100-150 or below)? What are the roles of archers in those parties, especially given that learning Bow is a lifetime investment?
Thanks in advance!

Well I think others have covered most of the points I would have made, so I just have a few minor observations.

First off, as other have noted, taking fire from an archer in an advance generally slows you down, either from you trying to avoid getting hit or getting hit and having to deal with it.

Another thing is that a bow (or any missile weapon) has a certain amount of intimidation factor. My rule has always been:

"There's a reason you can hold off 20 people with two rounds left in your gun...no one wants to be numbers 1 & 2."

I think a factor in the "intimidation" is partly that in earlier centuries, a deep puncture wound (impaling) is generally harder to treat and keep infection out, so some of that fear is justified in the period, as you might not die from the initial wound, but you might wish you had.

I once saw an archer (In SCA Light combat) hold off 6 opponents at short (10') range, simply because no one wanted to be the one to take the arrow.
(Author's note: I showed up, assessed and obliquely charged the archer, parried the arrow - into my leg - and the other 6 guys pounded him like a tent peg before he could bear on them.)

DF of course, generally you're going to get opponents that are going ignore casualties, but in a historical setting, animals and other creatures as well as "people" are going to not like the fact that you can reach out and touch them first.

[Kalzazz]

I normally think of something like a WWII infantry tank concept, so my lower point archers tend to be practically immobile from weight of armor, but able to stand and trade blows

Except they trade blows at range

A backup melee weapon is still essential though

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Molokh

However, what about the games with normal point ranges (100-150 or below)? What are the roles of archers in those parties, especially given that learning Bow is a lifetime investment?

1) A bowman can ambush and strike from a distance. It is a *very* useful addition to most parties from both a strategic and tactic perspective, even if melee weapons deal more damage and hit more easily.

2) Bodkin arrows. The only easy way to reduce DR in low-powered, pseudo-realistic games.

3) All-out aimed attacks on vulnerable locations, especially against huge monsters or heavily armored knights.

4) Being a bowman is very cheap compared to a swordsman: a single skill to improve, ST and HT are less important, equipment is cheap.

5) If you stay 10 yards out of the fight, you'll probably avoid capture, watch the horses, protect the One Ring, even if the fight goes badly. This can be very useful for the party.

Bowmen DO kill less foes than melee fighters, but playing them can be both useful and fun!

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Being able to hunt is Archery 14. Perhaps even Archery 12.

Archery useful in a GURPS DF campaign is more like Archery 18, or even Archery 20.

The OP wasn't talking about DF-style games:

Originally Posted by Molokh

However, what about the games with normal point ranges (100-150 or below)? What are the roles of archers in those parties, especially given that learning Bow is a lifetime investment?