[Diatribe] Bringing the GURPS

[Irish Wolf]

You know, some of what's mentioned above reminds me of some of the complaints about that other Despised & Dismissed game - and I don't find it any more valid when applied to GURPS.

Yes, there are a lot of books. You only need two. With Characters and Campaigns, you can run almost any sort of RPG you can imagine. (Yes, other books can help you flesh out your creation, and give you fun options, but they're not necessary. Just because one of your players picked up a copy of Transhuman Space, you are not obligated to allow TS characters into your modern-day spy adventure.)

Yes, there are a fair number of rules. Never forget the Prime Directive of RPGs, though - if the rule doesn't make playing the game more fun than otherwise, toss it! You bought the books, that means you get to edit them any way you like.

These statements are also true of That Other Game - yes, they produce supplement books the way the Octomom produces babies, but you don't have to buy, read, or use those books any more than you have to watch the Octokids. And yes, they have a lot of really stupid rules, but they only have to apply to your world if you want them to.

GURPS does have one massive advantage over That Other Game, though, and most RPGs I know as well - if you want to take your pseudo-medieval adventurer and stick him aboard a starship with two cyborgs and a WWII soldier, GURPS will do this more easily than anything else I've found.

[The Final Door]

Just curious... When people say they want 'more GURPS', in whatever terms they use (including Bring The GURPS), what are they going for? I don't mind there not being that many GURPS players around, if I want to do GURPS, I'll pretty much do GURPS (mainly GMing, that is). I don't mind GURPS not being praised, either. I just want more books, and as mentioned know that that means GURPS has to re-jack the market. No market, no books = now (yes, one book now and then, and e23. I stand by my argument in spite of that).

What is it that other people are missing? Please be as exact as at all possible...

[panton41]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

How to improve combat: There are two types of fights in RPGs: mook and boss. A mook fight does two things: use up consumable resources and allows PCs to show off their moves. PCs don't die in mook fights unless they do something outrageously stupid. Boss fights are the serious ones. There is no holding back in them. Both sides are out for the kill.

There are cinematic rules options that allow this to be done. Call a "mook" "Cannon Fodder" and use those rules. On the "boss" use whatever subset of the standard rules you like.

However I agree that without at least some feeling of danger there's no fun. Not that I want my PCs killed by #21 and #24, but I don't want them to think the fight isn't a part of the drama.

[Mylon]

Why I don't play GURPS:

Personally, I don't really like the attribute/skill relationship. For characters that need more than 4 skills, talent means so much more than skill. This is easily enough stopped by limiting character point totals. Say, 30% total limit towards attributes.

The scaling system seems strange to me as well. Perhaps I haven't applied proper modifiers, but skills beyond 16+ seem redundant, as the probability curve ends there, and achieving this skill is fairly easy for the suggested starting point build.

Glut. Too many skills. For example, if I tried to stat myself, my skill list would be long enough that it might rival an entire character sheet from another game. It gets to a point where having IQ! might be so much easier.

Groupwise, the book is far too confusing. My players spend hours and hours (as in, it can take two sessions) to generate characters. They go through the advantage list like it's a candy story and they grab what sounds fun. Skills are often glossed over and many important ones are forgotten entirely. I can step in as the GM and veto certain disadvantages and try and help the players build their characters better, but this extended character creation time further.

Combat is difficult. The speed-range table is a chore. By the time my group has generated characters and gotten through their first combat (often because they didn't have the right skills to avoid the combat) everyone's lost interest in the game.

I guess it's quite a number of reasons... Most of them being my group is a bunch of combat mongers and just want quick tactical combat. Not fluffy details.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Mylon

Perhaps I haven't applied proper modifiers, but skills beyond 16+ seem redundant, as the probability curve ends there, and achieving this skill is fairly easy for the suggested starting point build.

You haven't applied proper modifiers. Try finding something harder for them to do.

My players spend hours and hours (as in, it can take two sessions) to generate characters. They go through the advantage list like it's a candy story and they grab what sounds fun. Skills are often glossed over and many important ones are forgotten entirely.

- Insist on character concepts before anyone starts looking through a book.
- Provide a list of common skills for the setting. Insist that people either take them, or have a reasonable explanation why their character wouldn't have them.
- Check characters before play for appropriateness.
- Alternately, find better gaming group.

The speed-range table is a chore.

Huh?

[Mylon]

Originally Posted by Xplo

You haven't applied proper modifiers. Try finding something harder for them to do.



- Insist on character concepts before anyone starts looking through a book.
- Provide a list of common skills for the setting. Insist that people either take them, or have a reasonable explanation why their character wouldn't have them.
- Check characters before play for appropriateness.
- Alternately, find better gaming group.

Proper modifiers might need more detail in the book. As in, possibly more than a page. Perhaps a whole section on how to challenge highly skilled PCs (and thusly encourage specialization over generalization).

As for the list of points, the first two should be made more important and made in big bold flashing letters (well, if flashing was possible in print). Perhaps even make a character concept a part of character creation in itself. The third I tried, but creation took so long I got tired and didn't want to bother, only wanted to get on with the game. That and my friends can be stubborn. I have to convince them that they want to change their character, which takes time.

Finding another gaming group? I live in Tampa, which is a a surprisingly well populated area with a surprisingly small number of gaming shops. A prominent one closed down a few years ago, and even then that one was a 30 minute drive from where I live. I don't get it myself.

[trechriron]

Originally Posted by Mylon

... {Why I don't play GURPS stuff}

I am curious, why did you feel compelled to jump into my "Bring the GURPS" thread with that?

Look, I am all for free speech and opinions. I am more than aware there are people out there that don't like GURPS. It still boggles me that some of those people are posting in the GURPS forum (this is not that forum - I know - just saying...). Or why you would want to jump into my "I just realized I really want to run GURPS" thread with "I don't play GURPS". Are you trying to save me from something? If so, could you all be more specific, because I'm dense. Are you saying GURPS can't be Brought? :-O :-D Seriously?

Now, if you could tell me how to Bring the GURPS to you, I guess this might be on topic. However, of all the problems you list, there are VERY simple solutions. Use generic modifiers instead of the speed chart. Use GCA to make characters. Take a little time before char gen to detail your setting and create some character templates to cover some of what you expect as a GM from the characters. The 30% of CP limitation on frankly any category could work. Use ! skills. If you're group likes combat, I can't imagine the tactical options in GURPS not giving them the mechanical beef they are looking for. Give out point totals sans disads. Let them make characters, then when complete, ask them to pick out 2 disads. Award CP for the disads in game instead of up front (if they bring it into the game or let you bring it against them).

I don't mind "I don't play GURPS", but in the spirit of this thread, I wish people would tell me what could "Bring the GURPS" to them. I am really (I swear) interested in this conversation. If you're just trying to save us from the evil GURPS, I don't need that. It's not helpful. I am not interested in dropping GURPS, I am interested in supporting it and playing it.

If there is simply no way to "Bring the GURPS" to you; if you are set on not playing it. Then this thread is obviously not for you. No need to tell me. I can read about that in a million other posts you will inevitably make here and elsewhere. I must repeat; I am not saying your opinion is not welcome or you shouldn't have it, I am just asking that people pitch their ideas on what we can do as fans to Bring the GURPS. Saying, "GURPS can't be Brought" and the generalizations of "combat doesn't work", "magic is all or nothing", "Character creation takes too long" et al are not helping or even remotely constructive.

Thanks,

[trechriron]

I thought maybe someone would be interested to know. How did I come to realize I wanted GURPS (again)? Here's my story.

I have looked at piles of systems, read hundreds, played dozens, and bought/sold whole collections. Except I always keep my GURPS. I have always wanted to run a regular GURPS group but (as previously mentioned) made excuses. One was a delusion. I wanted to publish a setting. I thought I could make a go of it doing my own thing, but frankly it's not what I want. I don't want to invent new systems from whole cloth; I just want to create my settings, ideas, and adventures. Then run a game with them!

I looked at lighter systems but realized after a few sessions that tweaking out the rules or looking outside the narrow scope of what those systems offered was way more work than I wanted. Things like magic and powers were under-developed and customizing them was a chore. Several systems hardly offered any magic or powers at all. So much is left out to get the "guts" published that after a few games that "emptiness" became glaring. I kept thinking to myself "I could easily tweak that out or add something new if we were playing GURPS instead". One of the games I ran had several players disappointed because we couldn't really customize spells without some serious tinkering and hand-waving. I felt like the game had short term play potential but was lacking the substance I wanted to support a longer-term campaign.

I then thought to try out the popular games because they had the largest player base. This is what people are looking for, might as well try and cater to that need. I settled down to try out several sessions of D&D 4e (Living Forgotten Realms) a couple sessions of Pathfinder and took a long look into Fantasy Craft. I was reminded why I didn't like d20 anymore, especially classes and levels. I realized that regardless of how pretty or "changed" these games were not going to inspire me again. I just don't like them. What I did garner from the popular games? The bulk of the popular games are as involved as GURPS is, both in tactical combat, character creation, and options. Why go with a game I feel is less internally consistent that GURPS?

Sprinkled in these sessions were a plethora of smaller publisher and "Indy" games; Mouse Guard, 3:16, Godlike, Danger Patrol, Starblazer Adventures, Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies. I also managed a couple World of Darkness games to boot! Recently I played Shadowrun 4e and started reading and learning Earthdawn 3e.

I experienced some interesting things.

The Indy story games I played in were hardly used in the "narrative story-focused" capacity one may have thought - even the ones "designed" to do so. At demos people tended to just play the games the same way they would any other ignoring the system parts they didn't "get". Like plot manipulation which I have not seen taken very well with most of the players introduced to the concept. Some games have different ways of presenting the same "this modifies your roll in some way" system. In the end it really is just more work to arrive at the same place; that action has a penalty or a bonus based on some situation/factor.

Also, the whole "this inspires the player to play the character in a particular way" or "this rewards a particular behavior" effect was overstated. Certainly there are some mechanics that inspire me, but I haven't met a lot of players yet that will use them. I HAVE learned some neat GM tricks and ideas from these games, but I can accomplish the bulk of these effects with GURPS. Also, there are PILES of GMs that don't bother to bring any part of the special character stuff (disads, flaws, etc.) into the game. I will, so it can't hurt to have them.

Going to "laser focused" games with "new innovative" systems didn't really impress upon me a significant difference. I don't see any reason at this point to "go light" in hopes that a mechanic is going to inspire player behavior or somehow create a more involved story. I just didn't see it. Players just ask more questions and the GM is like, just roll or "this happens" and it left a feeling of disconnection with the imaginary world and the game. I did freeform make believe when I was a young lad, and I grew up to want some actual rules for it. Systems do not create good players. Being a good player requires several things most of which is a desire to not be a jerk. A system can't protect you from the jerk.

Additionally, many games have complexity or the illusion of complexity; GURPS is not some special culprit in this arena. It took me four days to create a Shadowrun 4e Rigger, and I am still tweaking him out after the first session. It's not a bad thing, just my inexperience and the breadth of the options made for a longer haul. Such will it be for any new players of a game they don't know. I can make that process easier and faster as an experienced GM. It will depend on the investment the GM makes into the players. It is not really system specific.

Also, many games are just as "complex" or appear complex as first glance. GURPS is not unique in this area. And just like GURPS, many of these systems play just fine. Some require more referencing than others, but the universal truth of "knowing this game makes everything about this game go faster" applied to all of them.

After looking at all this I just had to ask myself "what makes this any different than GURPS?" If I can't really see any difference, than what is it about this system I like MORE than GURPS? Nothing. I guess I could learn and support and play a multitude of systems, but in the end I really just want to become proficient in one. I really like generic systems. Always have. It fits what I want and I can't compromise that anymore. If there is going to be ramp up time (and I believe there always will be) and there is going to be some time invested in character creation (and I believe there always should be) then the "benefits" of a "faster" or "lighter" game don't measure up in my mind.

So I have chosen to be a GURPS GM again. Exclusively. There are lots of people out there running other games and I am going to focus on this one.

Just my personal experience. YMMV. :-D

[zorg]

Originally Posted by trechriron

I am just asking that people pitch their ideas on what we can do as fans to Bring the GURPS.

That's dead easy. All you need to do is sit down with friends and play the game.
If the players haven't heard about Gurps, all the better, you won't have to go against any preconceptions. If they have heard of Gurps, and are reluctant, ask them to give it a shot.

Your players won't know or care what supplements or books you have at home as long as the game is fun. I've done this with different people, different groups, and different play styles. In my experience, it works.

See, we're talking about a game. A game is only doing what it's supposed to when you actually play it. That's why all these conversions, house rules, mods and what have you may be fun (I enjoy them, myself), but they're not the game. Playing the game is more important than to think about complicated setting boxes to sell to people (or marketing strategies, or whatever).

imo.

[The Final Door]

Originally Posted by zorg

That's dead easy. All you need to do is sit down with friends and play the game.

In theory, I second that. If people want people to play, play the game with them. Logical (or dead easy, as Zorg said).

In practice, I think it's a bit tougher, or it would have succeeded already. I play GURPS whenever I can pick the system. Many in here do, too. But if we really want to make an impact, we need some tools, or just a tool, which will make doing the above easier for everybody. There is a reason so many pine for ready-to-use adventure stuff, and that's because it would make the above much easier.

We need a pre-assembled package that anybody, here or elsewhere (as in, someone new to GURPS) can just unpack and start playing. The Ein Airis (sp?) adventure's big brother, so to speak.

Luckily, such a package is the kind of stuff we in here could probably make easily, especially with a combined effort.

Just my 2c.