Renegade Balseraph of Kronos

Edman · 09-21-2009, 05:01 AM

These are pretty special. I imagine it can't be easy to be both a demon and an angel, especially with the Mercureans, Cherubs and Elohites. Mercureans and Cherubim are Choirs that really don't like to hurt people and Elohites just see that, objectively, it doesn't do anyone any good luring mortals to their Fate.

Particularily these BalAngels are likely to want to help humans even as demons and might be picked up by an unscrupolous Archangel - Michael for instance. It is much more valuable to have the perfect unique weapon than to redeem the darn thing and lose half of what he was capable of. Which leads me to the question - could he get Angelic Choir attunements? Discuss!

Regis · 09-21-2009, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edman

These are pretty special. I imagine it can't be easy to be both a demon and an angel, especially with the Mercureans, Cherubs and Elohites. Mercureans and Cherubim are Choirs that really don't like to hurt people and Elohites just see that, objectively, it doesn't do anyone any good luring mortals to their Fate.

Particularily these BalAngels are likely to want to help humans even as demons and might be picked up by an unscrupolous Archangel - Michael for instance. It is much more valuable to have the perfect unique weapon than to redeem the darn thing and lose half of what he was capable of. Which leads me to the question - could he get Angelic Choir attunements? Discuss!

I think there's a flaw in this - specifically, in the opening statement. Balseraphim of Kronos are not both angels and demons. They are demons who lie to the Symphony and pretend to be Angels. The lie doesn't have to be a very good one, and they can be as evil as they want as often as they want, as long as they keep up the deception. Specifically, they keep it up by obeying the dissonance conditions.

In the end, there is nothing objectively 'good' or even 'nice' about the resonance of the different choirs. Being able to read relationships isn't necessarily a good thing, especially if the subject's Fate is to be torn away from the people they love the most. All Mercurians have to do is not be violent, and you can mess people up without being violent. And the Cherub resonance? The Balseraph attunes, but he's a Balseraph - it's his nature to lie, not to love. He may lie to himself and say that he loves the object of his attunement and wants to keep them safe, but in the end he's still pushing them towards the welcoming arms of Hell.

The only resonance that I can see a Balseraph having difficulties with (presuming that the Seraph resonance is prohibited) is the Malakim resonance. Why? Because Balseraphs will have a bitch of a time swearing oaths that they've convinced themselves will be no problem to follow, then realising that they have to follow through. That could get... tricky.

banditangel · 09-22-2009, 03:03 AM

I could see a delusional (or at least very mentally unbalanced) Balseraph of Fate going this route, but it's hardly going to be common. It'd create really interesting conflict, since they may very well *detest* the notion of "redeeming to be a Seraph."

So, basically, you have a Bal-Mercurian who wants to redeem in to a *real* Mercurian, and isn't willing to have their Mercurian nature stripped away from them. Despite the fact that they act and believe angelically, they're still cut off from the true Symphony, they're still fighting a deeply Selfish nature, and they're constantly being tempted by their *true* resonance as a Balseraph. And while they're happy to serve an Archangel, they refuse redemtpion.

Of course, Kronos is going to *smile* when he realizes where his wayward servant went. Because now every Archangel is going to get little "gift packages" from time to time, that have the exact same story, and are ticking timebombs just waiting for orders from Kronos (it's hardly dissonant for a Balseraph of Fate to go about pretending to have morals just to deceive the Heavenly Host!)

---

Mind you, it's quite possible to have a regular Balseraph go this route, too - they want to help the world, they want to do good, but they simply cannot stand the notion that they have to give up... well, their very nature, effectively their soul in order to become a part of Heaven. I could see one sneaking his way in to a group of angelic PCs. As long as you avoid Malakim and Seraphim, you're really pretty safe (Mercurian's will pick up that you're good friends with a bunch of angels, which only helps reinforce the lie :))

If you want to get really seriously messed up, they could deliberately force-strip themselves in to a remnant to gain immunity to angelic resonances, but... yeah. Words sort of fail me, at that point.

---

Also worth keeping in mind: Demons are inheritly selfish. We're not talking "a selfish person", here. We're talking straight-up neurological defect. Think chronic depression, autism, and the like. They might be highly functional, but they still deal with this constantly, and even on the best day there's still little things they can't quite get under control.

(I'm not sure quite how canonical this is, mind. GURPS In Nomine has "selfish" as part of the racial package, though, so I take it as heavily implied that it'd at least take a lot of time, and time away from The Game, to work that off. Trying to become selfless will put you on The Game's hit list ASAP :))

Edman · 09-22-2009, 05:16 AM

But servitors of Fate AREN'T cut off from the Symphony. Canon states that they hear it as well as angels. Mercurians can be vain and self-centered, granted, but the Cherub resonance is for caring (though Kronos might as well use Djinn so I don't see WHY he would Cherub up a Balseraph), but an Elohite will be painfully aware of the damage he's causing and he can't subjectively derive pleasure from it. Actually, isn't selfishness something inheritently subjective... I suppose he'd have to Lie to himself and convince himself that it is in everyone's best interests if he advances himself regardless of the costs as he's just so goddamn good - but somehow an objective demon an oxymoron.

Acolyte · 09-22-2009, 11:39 AM

Don't forget that dissonance (and the resulting Discord) isn't as bad for demons as it is for angels, since there's no risk of Falling (you can't roll and somehow Redeem, barring a Divine Intervention on your dissonance roll and maybe not even then) and less of a social stigma from their peers. So I would say Balseraphs of Fate with the Elohim resonance are less traumatized by acting illogically than true Elohim.

banditangel · 09-23-2009, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edman

But servitors of Fate AREN'T cut off from the Symphony. Canon states that they hear it as well as angels.

Keep in mind, though, they're still hearing it with an infernal tint: Malakim of Fate swear their own oaths, not the mandatory Heavenly pair. I'd assume Elohim of Fate are equally twisted, and view "the best interest of the Symphony" through the lense of Fate, rather than Destiny.

Also, even Heavenly Elohim are still expected to obey orders. A Bal-Elohim might convince itself that Kronos really knows best, and it just doesn't understand the larger scheme, how this is really doing good. It'd still do all sorts of actual good when it didn't contradict orders, too.

If that still doesn't work for you: objectively, "disobey Kronos" is going to result in it's destruction - it will know it has a Destiny greater than that, so if it truly wants to do what's actually best, it'll bide it's time until it has a chance at redemption (and getting an Archangel to believe that you truly want to redeem will still be very tricky)

Keep in mind, they are Balseraph first and Elohim second. They can lie to themselves, and they can do it very, very well.

(I'd also mention: I think they'd flock to Yves for redemption - if they truly prove themselves over decades of hard work, they might just get to taste the resonance they lost once again)

Jason · 10-02-2009, 08:32 AM

I had a player in my group who was considering playing a Renegade Balseraph of Fate, and we ended up not doing it because we just couldn't figure out how the rules would work satisfactorily. Would the other PCs get to roll Will anytime he did something "angelic" to detect whether something was odd? Would this only come up when he used his resonance specifically to say "I'm an angel," or would he not need to use his resonance as long as people treated him like an angel and he went along with it? Would the Renegade earn Dissonance whenever someone found out that he is not an angel? Is emulating the Seraphim resonance entirely even possible for a Balseraph of Fate as long as he never uses his native resonance?

I do see a lot of potential for such characters to create zany situations in campaigns, anyway. One way to deal with much of the above, I thought, might be just to maintain two entirely different vessels and treat the character as essentially having multiple personality disorder, though the idea of a character with angelic and demonic abilities simultaneously is a fascinating one.

09-21-2009, 05:01 AM	#1
Edman Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Norrköping, Sweden, Europe, Earth	Renegade Balseraph of Kronos These are pretty special. I imagine it can't be easy to be both a demon and an angel, especially with the Mercureans, Cherubs and Elohites. Mercureans and Cherubim are Choirs that really don't like to hurt people and Elohites just see that, objectively, it doesn't do anyone any good luring mortals to their Fate. Particularily these BalAngels are likely to want to help humans even as demons and might be picked up by an unscrupolous Archangel - Michael for instance. It is much more valuable to have the perfect unique weapon than to redeem the darn thing and lose half of what he was capable of. Which leads me to the question - could he get Angelic Choir attunements? Discuss! __________________ "Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm proud to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever." - Baron von Münchausen

09-22-2009, 03:03 AM	#3
banditangel Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Portland, OR	Re: Renegade Balseraph of Kronos I could see a delusional (or at least very mentally unbalanced) Balseraph of Fate going this route, but it's hardly going to be common. It'd create really interesting conflict, since they may very well detest the notion of "redeeming to be a Seraph." So, basically, you have a Bal-Mercurian who wants to redeem in to a real Mercurian, and isn't willing to have their Mercurian nature stripped away from them. Despite the fact that they act and believe angelically, they're still cut off from the true Symphony, they're still fighting a deeply Selfish nature, and they're constantly being tempted by their true resonance as a Balseraph. And while they're happy to serve an Archangel, they refuse redemtpion. Of course, Kronos is going to smile when he realizes where his wayward servant went. Because now every Archangel is going to get little "gift packages" from time to time, that have the exact same story, and are ticking timebombs just waiting for orders from Kronos (it's hardly dissonant for a Balseraph of Fate to go about pretending to have morals just to deceive the Heavenly Host!) --- Mind you, it's quite possible to have a regular Balseraph go this route, too - they want to help the world, they want to do good, but they simply cannot stand the notion that they have to give up... well, their very nature, effectively their soul in order to become a part of Heaven. I could see one sneaking his way in to a group of angelic PCs. As long as you avoid Malakim and Seraphim, you're really pretty safe (Mercurian's will pick up that you're good friends with a bunch of angels, which only helps reinforce the lie :)) If you want to get really seriously messed up, they could deliberately force-strip themselves in to a remnant to gain immunity to angelic resonances, but... yeah. Words sort of fail me, at that point. --- Also worth keeping in mind: Demons are inheritly selfish. We're not talking "a selfish person", here. We're talking straight-up neurological defect. Think chronic depression, autism, and the like. They might be highly functional, but they still deal with this constantly, and even on the best day there's still little things they can't quite get under control. (I'm not sure quite how canonical this is, mind. GURPS In Nomine has "selfish" as part of the racial package, though, so I take it as heavily implied that it'd at least take a lot of time, and time away from The Game, to work that off. Trying to become selfless will put you on The Game's hit list ASAP :))

09-22-2009, 05:16 AM	#4
Edman Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Norrköping, Sweden, Europe, Earth	Re: Renegade Balseraph of Kronos But servitors of Fate AREN'T cut off from the Symphony. Canon states that they hear it as well as angels. Mercurians can be vain and self-centered, granted, but the Cherub resonance is for caring (though Kronos might as well use Djinn so I don't see WHY he would Cherub up a Balseraph), but an Elohite will be painfully aware of the damage he's causing and he can't subjectively derive pleasure from it. Actually, isn't selfishness something inheritently subjective... I suppose he'd have to Lie to himself and convince himself that it is in everyone's best interests if he advances himself regardless of the costs as he's just so goddamn good - but somehow an objective demon an oxymoron. __________________ "Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm proud to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever." - Baron von Münchausen

09-22-2009, 11:39 AM	#5
Acolyte Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Seattle	Re: Renegade Balseraph of Kronos Don't forget that dissonance (and the resulting Discord) isn't as bad for demons as it is for angels, since there's no risk of Falling (you can't roll and somehow Redeem, barring a Divine Intervention on your dissonance roll and maybe not even then) and less of a social stigma from their peers. So I would say Balseraphs of Fate with the Elohim resonance are less traumatized by acting illogically than true Elohim. __________________ “The world is going to Hell in a hand-basket, but I’ve got Good News: I saved my soul by switching to Heaven.” —Baruel, former Djinn of the Media, now Cherub of Destiny and the Angel of Good News

10-02-2009, 08:32 AM	#7
Jason Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Boston, MA	Re: Renegade Balseraph of Kronos I had a player in my group who was considering playing a Renegade Balseraph of Fate, and we ended up not doing it because we just couldn't figure out how the rules would work satisfactorily. Would the other PCs get to roll Will anytime he did something "angelic" to detect whether something was odd? Would this only come up when he used his resonance specifically to say "I'm an angel," or would he not need to use his resonance as long as people treated him like an angel and he went along with it? Would the Renegade earn Dissonance whenever someone found out that he is not an angel? Is emulating the Seraphim resonance entirely even possible for a Balseraph of Fate as long as he never uses his native resonance? I do see a lot of potential for such characters to create zany situations in campaigns, anyway. One way to deal with much of the above, I thought, might be just to maintain two entirely different vessels and treat the character as essentially having multiple personality disorder, though the idea of a character with angelic and demonic abilities simultaneously is a fascinating one.