Swimming Uses Agi?

[Acolyte]

While preparing my Seraph of Jordi for rknop's PbP game, I read into the Swimming skill, which I don't think I ever have before. The associated characteristic is Agility.

This I do not agree with. Swimming is much more about physical strength and stamina than dexterity. Since IN wraps stamina (what would be Constitution or a Stamina stat somewhere else) and prowess into Strength, that seems overwhelmingly like the appropriate statistic to use.

I note that Strength determines speed with a perhaps boost from Agi, but the fact that a failure at the skill roll translates to either moving nowhere or at worst breathing water indicates a weird disconnect. Either you're moving your Strength in speed + a bonus from agile technique or you're stuck and possibly drowning?

Looking onto wikipedia, it specifies that among the four racing styles (front crawl, backstroke, breaststroke, and butterfly stroke) of swimming, the only one not easily performed by beginners using brute strength to make up for poor technique is the butterfly. This implies that for casual swimming, strength is more important than agility. The timing and coordination aspects (which are definitely Agi-based) really only come into play when making your speed as fast as possible...or when swimming fly.

At the very least, I would have the stat be based on (Strength or Agility, see text) and note that races over short distances would be based on Agility, but casual swimming on Strength, and long-term racing based on both (either successive checks or one modifying the TN of the next; this represents both endurance [Str] and efficiency [Agi]). I'd probably reword it as this:

Swimming (Strength or Agility, see text)

For most swimming tasks, the skill uses the Strength of the swimmer, with the CD added to the base Strength score to get the distance he moves in one round. A skill roll using Agility may be made previous to the Swimming roll; add or subtract the CD of the Agility roll to the actual skill roll's target number. Failure on the Swimming roll indicates no progress (a CD of 6 indicates a hit of damage from breathing water, but this damage is temporary and vanishes with an hour of out-of-water rest).

For contested Swimming rolls (ie, races of at least moderate distance), reverse the order of the rolls. Thus, the CD of a Str+Swimming roll is used to modify the target number of the actual skill roll, an Agi+Swimming roll.

[Flyndaran]

By that argument every physical act should be strength based.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

By that argument every physical act should be strength based.

I don't quite see how that follows. Agility would be much more important in something like tennis or even moreso in racquetball, and it doesn't bother me that the Driving skill is Agility based.

More to the point, how swimming anything but the backstroke requires careful timing to keep from inhaling water. Timing isn't quite the same as agility, true, but it's closer to that than strength.

I actually find backstroke requires a lot more focus for me to keep going, but I don't have trouble drowning when swimming crawl.

Upon review, though, I wonder how commonplace basic Swim training is in 1) the world, and 2) among celestials?

For example, most everyone I know can swim easily. And it's not like swimming ability is particularly hard to attain. Historically, though, swimming ability was pretty rare (no stats for that, just commonly what you hear--all the sailors drowned but they didn't know how to swim anyway, etc), and my experiences certainly aren't world-wide. Does your average Chinese 30-yo know how to swim? Or Indian? Or Azer-Baijani? What about your average Elohite?

What I'm getting at is that even in a high stress situation, me and most of the people I know would have no problem doing a front crawl for a few laps. Or to a rescue boat if the water wasn't excessively choppy, etc. But making Swimming its own skill, and given those rules (or the one I suggested, for that matter), most humans would fail at that.

If the Swimming skill meant training in competitive swimming, I see it based on Agility without much complaint. But if all swimming-based issues are related to the same skill...the failure rate is pretty sickly high. For example, compare to Running. If you fail your running check, you still run, just not as fast (unless on a 6, which I'm okay with). It's not that failing the running check results in you standing still.

Swimming is obviously harder than running...but not THAT much harder.

[gjc8]

Keep in mind that there are difficult swimming tasks that still bear little resemblance to most competitive swimming, and for which the agility critique applies. There's very little timing involved in simply treading water, but it can still be difficult if you're carrying significant dead weight.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

While preparing my Seraph of Jordi for rknop's PbP game, I read into the Swimming skill, which I don't think I ever have before. The associated characteristic is Agility.

This I do not agree with. Swimming is much more about physical strength and stamina than dexterity. Since IN wraps stamina (what would be Constitution or a Stamina stat somewhere else) and prowess into Strength, that seems overwhelmingly like the appropriate statistic to use.
...

Speaking as an ex-swimmer, one who is horribly out of shape anymore...heh heh heh, I know too well what agility means to swimming. More to the point, how swimming anything but the backstroke requires careful timing to keep from inhaling water. Timing isn't quite the same as agility, true, but it's closer to that than strength.

So I disagree with

The timing and coordination aspects (which are definitely Agi-based) really only come into play when making your speed as fast as possible...or when swimming fly.

when the swimming is even remotely competitive. Exhale in water, inhale above water--I'm thinking breaststroke and crawl in particular. It doesn't take a whole lot of strength to get your face out of the water--though it takes some, especially after the 2nd or 3rd lap--but get that timing wrong and hackcoughspit.

Though it's hard to deny that cardiovascular fitness is a huge factor in swimming/stamina, I'd say that would affect how long you can swim, not whether. I'm not a big fan of rewriting book rules, just playing by intuition. And mine tells me, use Agility to determine whether the MC can swim. In a competitive situation I'd then possibly compare an average of Str/Agil to see whether A catches B.

Then again I use a slightly different mechanic on character vs character bits anyway...

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Speaking as an ex-swimmer, one who is horribly out of shape anymore...heh heh heh, I know too well what agility means to swimming. More to the point, how swimming anything but the backstroke requires careful timing to keep from inhaling water. Timing isn't quite the same as agility, true, but it's closer to that than strength.

But it might be even closer to Precision (a stat that I personally would rename Focus, if it weren't already being used for a sorcerous ritual). Perhaps it should be either Focus or Agility, where you either have the timing down or else enough natural coordination that the timing doesn't become an issue?

Acolyte, I'll go with you in one area: most people in the modern world have seen someone swim (thanks to television) and a lot of places in the developed world offer swimming classes. That's why almost everybody gets a default. But my own experience living more than 1,000 miles away from the nearest large body of water has shown me that untrained people are usually *lousy* swimmers. They thrash about very inefficiently and probably wouldn't last more than a handful of seconds outside controlled conditions.

Honestly? I would give a +2, maybe even a +4, to swimming attempts in the average city pool, where the water's comfy, there's no waves, good lighting and everything is set up to give a swimmer help. (In GURPS, I'd give it a +4 for routine conditions.) But out in the ocean, or even a fair-sized lake? Nuh-uh.

Frankly, I think most people put one point into Swimming skill and swim in areas they can handle. Or for "costal folk" like you, make that two points. ;)

(EDIT: Also, I seem to recall your Jordite uses a whale vessel. The sources I have immediately available tell me whales are very agile swimmers.)