Slam rules

Presence · 07-11-2009, 11:27 PM

I've been toying around with making more interesting fighters. My blink-backstabber idea seemed a little munchkin, (Though I do love the image) so I started thinking along the lines of a densely muscled slam/shove fighter that focuses more on ruining opponent defense than getting a brain hit off with every attack.

Anyway, the slam rules are understandably a little simplified, but if it's a core part of a character concept, I'd like a better alternative. Hp instead of weight is one thing I don't like. It's good for generic npcs to save time, but a character should be able to calculate based on weight.

Also it seems a little odd that the amount one has moved is all that matters. I'd think the amount one CAN move would be at least half of the equation. At the very least the ST of your leg muscles should let you get effort in as you enter your opponent's hex and shoulder them in the stomach or whatever. I know it takes some time to build full speed, but not more than a few yards should put you close to max velocity I'd think.

I also recall seeing a 5 point "high density" advantage somewhere or other. Hmm.

Any thoughts?

SuedodeuS · 07-11-2009, 11:59 PM

HP vs Weight: HP is a measurement of how much mass you have that actually matters. Having higher weight than your HP just means you've got some squishy rolls of fat that won't help you damage someone with a slam at all. It could help with knocking them down - at the GM's discretion, the ST bonus to resist knockback from Fat and heavier could qualify as an ST bonus to cause knockback in the case of a slam. If you have a character who wants to weigh more than his HP indicates, and actually get a benefit from this, he needs to pay in some fashion.

As for movement, keep in mind that it does take time to accelerate. GURPS indicates that a typical human goes from 0 to full speed in around 2 seconds. This may or may not be accurate, I'm not certain. However, I doubt anyone can just suddenly start going full speed from a dead stop. I think the current rules work, if you add the caveat (not certain if this is already in the rules or not) that movement from the previous round can still apply. So, if you have move 7, and you moved 7 yards last round, moving 1 more yard this round to collide with your target should count you as though you moved 7 yards - as you did, just not this round.

No clue about the high density thing. Honestly, I'd expect something like that to just be represented by having high HP.

Presence · 07-12-2009, 12:31 AM

Squishiness is probably a factor , but I wouldn't see an average characters slam weight as squishy. Especially if you're wearing armor or leading with an elbow. To be fair I was planning a very lightly armored character, but that doesn't preclude depleted uranium elbow pads or something.

I think increased density was in gurps werewolf. Something like 5 points per level, each level gives +1 to slams and -1 to be slammed, and helps with knockback. I dunno how canon that all is though.

trooper6 · 07-12-2009, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Presence

Any thoughts?

Take the Sumo Wrestling Skill.
If you are going to be armed...then you really, really want a shield.
Take the Shoves and Tackles perk for that shield.

Crakkerjakk · 07-12-2009, 03:12 AM

A house rule I liked was that every 5 points you succeeded in your slam attempt by gives you one level of damage divisor for the damage you take from your opponent. This means that if you manage a flying tackle to the back of an unaware opponent using AoA: Determined and a Telegraphic Attack, you can fairly dependably fold them in half without taking any serious injury yourself.

Phoenix_Dragon · 07-12-2009, 08:23 AM

There was also the Explosive Slam perk I saw somewhere on the forums. Represented training in full-force, short-buildup slams, so that you could slam as if moving at your full move, even if you moved less than this amount. Very useful perk for anyone relying on slams a lot.

Having a different "weight HP" modifies collision/fall damage, by being substituted for your actual HP, and counts as a zero-point feature. Basically, a more-dense but not-tougher object might have only 10 HP, but have the effective weight of 15 HP, and treat collisions and falls as if their HP were 15. Basically, they do more damage in a slam, but also take more damage on a fall. More safely, you can just buy up HP.

In my games, I also tend to remember how fast people were going, so if they moved a full 5 yards last turn, then move one yard the next turn into a slam, I'll let them count as moving at their full move, rather than just 1.

SuedodeuS · 07-12-2009, 01:57 PM

I forgot about falling damage, but is it really common enough to make "knockback/slam" HP a feature? Unless you're running a spelunking/mountain-climbing adventure, I'd say no. Something that might be able to get it into "feature" status would be to allow stop thrusts to use the opponent's Slam damage in place of your own thrust (similar to armed slams from Martial Arts). The character becomes difficult to knockback/down and does a little extra Slam damage, but he's in some serious hurt if the enemy uses a stop thrust.

As a Perk high-density would probably work. 5/level seems a bit high.

Phoenix_Dragon · 07-12-2009, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

I forgot about falling damage, but is it really common enough to make "knockback/slam" HP a feature?

Falling damage is about as common as collision damage, really. And both are really a function of mass, not how tough you are. Does require the GM to aprove it to avoid abuse, as most things do, but the really abusive builds ("I have 15 HP, but a mass equal to 100 HP!") would tend to punish themselves ("You fall off the stool onto the floor. 10d damage... Hmm, death check, please.").

For humans, I doubt it'd be very far from the actual HP value. I'd suggest a limit of no more than 30% higher or lower than HP, since that matches up well with other derived traits like HP and FP, assuming you even allow it for humans.

I kinda like the idea of tying stop-thrust into it too, but that also seems pretty broken in other ways. Stop-thrust is still reliant on the attacker's strength to hold and drive the attack in. If a really big creature (Like an elephant or tyrannosaurus) charges a spearman, realisticly the spearman is going to do some (Likely small, relatively speaking) damage to it before they just can't keep driving it in, possibly even losing the spear if they try. Basing it off slam damage, though, would likely reduce the charger to making conciousness checks, if not death checks, from a single hit. I don't think anyone could hold onto a spear against that much force...

vitruvian · 07-13-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

HP vs Weight: HP is a measurement of how much mass you have that actually matters. Having higher weight than your HP just means you've got some squishy rolls of fat that won't help you damage someone with a slam at all. It could help with knocking them down - at the GM's discretion, the ST bonus to resist knockback from Fat and heavier could qualify as an ST bonus to cause knockback in the case of a slam. If you have a character who wants to weigh more than his HP indicates, and actually get a benefit from this, he needs to pay in some fashion.

As for movement, keep in mind that it does take time to accelerate. GURPS indicates that a typical human goes from 0 to full speed in around 2 seconds. This may or may not be accurate, I'm not certain. However, I doubt anyone can just suddenly start going full speed from a dead stop. I think the current rules work, if you add the caveat (not certain if this is already in the rules or not) that movement from the previous round can still apply. So, if you have move 7, and you moved 7 yards last round, moving 1 more yard this round to collide with your target should count you as though you moved 7 yards - as you did, just not this round.

No clue about the high density thing. Honestly, I'd expect something like that to just be represented by having high HP.

Given that a Move 5-10 human can actually cover that full distance in the first turn they're moving, just not get the 1 yard sprint bonus, most of the acceleration must be taking place in the first couple yards and the first fraction of the 1-second turn; otherwise, your first turn's movement would always be penalized by some amount, even if you were just taking the Move maneuver.

In other words, if my top speed is 5 yards/second, 6 yards/second if I'm sprinting for a full second, and I actually cover a full 5 yards in my first second, that tells me that the first 5 yards/second of acceleration is darn near instantaneous. If it were 5 yards/second squared, over the course of the full second, then I would only cover 2.5 yards.

LynGrey · 07-13-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trooper6

Take the Sumo Wrestling Skill.
If you are going to be armed...then you really, really want a shield.
Take the Shoves and Tackles perk for that shield.

Or... BRAWLING!!!! Everybody tends to skip right over brawling :-)

I would post some links to dicussions on how SLAMs are not safe and not that damaging in the first place, but excellent ways to put someone on their tail. Its why hockey players check.. its not to crush you its to get you out of the play buy making you get back up ;-)

Everytime i get involved in a dicussion about slams it gets pretty heated. And i think the rules are just fine and dandy, and fiarly accurate.

As far as the weight vs HP arguement, it can go both weights. Some guys are just bulky/bigger naturally but not strong. Some are small and "freakishily" strong. Nothign says you can't make a High ST and HP character lets say 14 and be 170lbs (thats pretty small guy)or you can be ST and HP 10 and be 170lbs. Both are within the range of Average.

07-11-2009, 11:27 PM	#1
Presence Join Date: Dec 2008	Slam rules I've been toying around with making more interesting fighters. My blink-backstabber idea seemed a little munchkin, (Though I do love the image) so I started thinking along the lines of a densely muscled slam/shove fighter that focuses more on ruining opponent defense than getting a brain hit off with every attack. Anyway, the slam rules are understandably a little simplified, but if it's a core part of a character concept, I'd like a better alternative. Hp instead of weight is one thing I don't like. It's good for generic npcs to save time, but a character should be able to calculate based on weight. Also it seems a little odd that the amount one has moved is all that matters. I'd think the amount one CAN move would be at least half of the equation. At the very least the ST of your leg muscles should let you get effort in as you enter your opponent's hex and shoulder them in the stomach or whatever. I know it takes some time to build full speed, but not more than a few yards should put you close to max velocity I'd think. I also recall seeing a 5 point "high density" advantage somewhere or other. Hmm. Any thoughts?

07-11-2009, 11:59 PM	#2
SuedodeuS Join Date: Sep 2008	Re: Slam rules HP vs Weight: HP is a measurement of how much mass you have that actually matters. Having higher weight than your HP just means you've got some squishy rolls of fat that won't help you damage someone with a slam at all. It could help with knocking them down - at the GM's discretion, the ST bonus to resist knockback from Fat and heavier could qualify as an ST bonus to cause knockback in the case of a slam. If you have a character who wants to weigh more than his HP indicates, and actually get a benefit from this, he needs to pay in some fashion. As for movement, keep in mind that it does take time to accelerate. GURPS indicates that a typical human goes from 0 to full speed in around 2 seconds. This may or may not be accurate, I'm not certain. However, I doubt anyone can just suddenly start going full speed from a dead stop. I think the current rules work, if you add the caveat (not certain if this is already in the rules or not) that movement from the previous round can still apply. So, if you have move 7, and you moved 7 yards last round, moving 1 more yard this round to collide with your target should count you as though you moved 7 yards - as you did, just not this round. No clue about the high density thing. Honestly, I'd expect something like that to just be represented by having high HP. __________________ Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat. Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad.

07-12-2009, 12:31 AM	#3
Presence Join Date: Dec 2008	Re: Slam rules Squishiness is probably a factor , but I wouldn't see an average characters slam weight as squishy. Especially if you're wearing armor or leading with an elbow. To be fair I was planning a very lightly armored character, but that doesn't preclude depleted uranium elbow pads or something. I think increased density was in gurps werewolf. Something like 5 points per level, each level gives +1 to slams and -1 to be slammed, and helps with knockback. I dunno how canon that all is though.

07-12-2009, 03:12 AM	#5
Crakkerjakk "Gimme 18 minutes . . ." Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Albuquerque, NM	Re: Slam rules A house rule I liked was that every 5 points you succeeded in your slam attempt by gives you one level of damage divisor for the damage you take from your opponent. This means that if you manage a flying tackle to the back of an unaware opponent using AoA: Determined and a Telegraphic Attack, you can fairly dependably fold them in half without taking any serious injury yourself. __________________ My bare bones web page Semper Fi

07-12-2009, 08:23 AM	#6
Phoenix_Dragon Join Date: Apr 2005	Re: Slam rules There was also the Explosive Slam perk I saw somewhere on the forums. Represented training in full-force, short-buildup slams, so that you could slam as if moving at your full move, even if you moved less than this amount. Very useful perk for anyone relying on slams a lot. Having a different "weight HP" modifies collision/fall damage, by being substituted for your actual HP, and counts as a zero-point feature. Basically, a more-dense but not-tougher object might have only 10 HP, but have the effective weight of 15 HP, and treat collisions and falls as if their HP were 15. Basically, they do more damage in a slam, but also take more damage on a fall. More safely, you can just buy up HP. In my games, I also tend to remember how fast people were going, so if they moved a full 5 yards last turn, then move one yard the next turn into a slam, I'll let them count as moving at their full move, rather than just 1.

07-12-2009, 01:57 PM	#7
SuedodeuS Join Date: Sep 2008	Re: Slam rules I forgot about falling damage, but is it really common enough to make "knockback/slam" HP a feature? Unless you're running a spelunking/mountain-climbing adventure, I'd say no. Something that might be able to get it into "feature" status would be to allow stop thrusts to use the opponent's Slam damage in place of your own thrust (similar to armed slams from Martial Arts). The character becomes difficult to knockback/down and does a little extra Slam damage, but he's in some serious hurt if the enemy uses a stop thrust. As a Perk high-density would probably work. 5/level seems a bit high. __________________ Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat. Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad.