Regenerative Ablative DR

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Now, I'm not trying to argue with you, Ze'Manel Cunha. But how would you model this:

Character has a DR 30 force field. It can only stop 30 points of damage per round not attack. If it gets hit by 10, 3-pt attacks, it stops them all, but if the character were to get hit by 11, they'd take 3 pts of damage. At the beginning of next turn, the force field refreshes back to 30 points.

Well, the fully rules supported munchkinny way would be 30 DR (Ablative -80%, Force Field +20%) [60], and Extreme Regeneration (DR only -60%; Based on DR +20%)[90], for a total cost of [150].

I find the above less than satisfying since on one hand it puts the character within reach of massive regeneration (not part of the concept) at minimal additional cost, and it's only worthwhile for high levels of DR.

I would personally price it as such:
[Extreme Regen DR only Based on DR is worth 90 points, so it works out to granting a bonus of +90%.
Ablative is -80%, but since we're getting back 90% of the value of it because the DR is Regenerative, so it's only worth a measly -8% as a limitation now.]

30 DR (Ablative ExRegen Based on DR -8%, Force Field +20%) [168]

No point crock done my way, and you don't have to worry about needing to buy a certain level of DR to make it worth the cost of paying for the Regen advantage.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Well, the fully rules supported munchkinny way would be 30 DR (Ablative -80%, Force Field +20%) [60], and Extreme Regeneration (DR only -60%; Based on DR +20%)[90], for a total cost of [150].

I find the above less than satisfying since on one hand it puts the character within reach of massive regeneration (not part of the concept) at minimal additional cost, and it's only worthwhile for high levels of DR.

I would personally price it as such:
[Extreme Regen DR only Based on DR is worth 90 points, so it works out to granting a bonus of +90%.
Ablative is -80%, but since we're getting back 90% of the value of it because the DR is Regenerative, so it's only worth a measly -8% as a limitation now.]

30 DR (Ablative ExRegen Based on DR -8%, Force Field +20%) [168]

No point crock done my way, and you don't have to worry about needing to buy a certain level of DR to make it worth the cost of paying for the Regen advantage.

Funny, your own results seem to demonstrate a "point crock" and definitely causes concern on buying a certain level of DR (or less) to make it worth the cost of paying for an increase in the regeneration rate of the DR your way instead of the "fully rules supported munchkinny way". Using your method, it is not necessarily "fair" to the player as once the player reaches a DR of 25 they will start to pay more than the "fully rules supported munchkinny way", and once the player reaches a DR 50 your way is twice the cost of the "fully rules supported munchkinny way", DR 75 your way is three times the "fully rules supported munchkinny way", etc. Yep, your way makes the player spend extra points to gain the benefits of an Advantage which they can get cheaper by just using the "fully rules supported munchkinny way". But then again, using the "fully rules supported munchkinny way" make buying a DR less than 25 more expensive than your way. In your way, the "cost value" to increase the regeneration rate of the DR (which is what the Regeneration advantage is for) is completely variable, the higher the DR the more expensive it is to increase it's regeneration rate. In "fully rules supported munchkinny way", the "cost value" (once set by the GM) is stable for the Regeneration advantage. If someone want to use your way, then they can also argue that since you want to make the "cost value" of Regeneration variable and based off of the level of DR taken, then Regeneration should be variable and based off of the level of HP taken also instead of being based on the increased rate of regeneration.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

In "fully rules supported munchkinny way", the "cost value" (once set by the GM) is stable for the Regeneration advantage.

Sure, all you pay is the Extreme Regeneration (DR only -60%; Based on DR +20%)[90], as a base, and then you buy Ablative DR.
So in a 500 Point campaign, that'd give you characters with 400 Ablative DR, which regenerates every second for a total of 490 points, and you consider that as equivalent value to the person who pays the same 490 point for normal 98 DR?

As far as I'm concerned, that's a total point crock, and wouldn't be allowed anywhere near any campaign I run.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

If someone want to use your way, then they can also argue that since you want to make the "cost value" of Regeneration variable and based off of the level of DR taken, then Regeneration should be variable and based off of the level of HP taken also instead of being based on the increased rate of regeneration.

Sure, as far as I'm concerned, if someone is buying HP for a Regen character, then they should be paying for the value of what they're getting.
Normally it wouldn't be an issue, but in say a Supers campaign, if someone has Extreme Regeneration and decides to buy another 100 HPs, then those HP should be worth [+150%] or 5 points per level, anything else would be unbalanced.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Sure, all you pay is the Extreme Regeneration (DR only -60%; Based on DR +20%)[90], as a base, and then you buy Ablative DR.
So in a 500 Point campaign, that'd give you characters with 400 Ablative DR, which regenerates every second for a total of 490 points, and you consider that as equivalent value to the person who pays the same 490 point for normal 98 DR?

As far as I'm concerned, that's a total point crock, and wouldn't be allowed anywhere near any campaign I run.

Sure, as far as I'm concerned, if someone is buying HP for a Regen character, then they should be paying for the value of what they're getting.
Normally it wouldn't be an issue, but in say a Supers campaign, if someone has Extreme Regeneration and decides to buy another 100 HPs, then those HP should be worth [+150%] or 5 points per level, anything else would be unbalanced.

Well, at least you're consistant.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Well, at least you're consistant.

I aim for consistency. I don't always hit it, but it is a goal.

I find consistency in assigning values is one of the things which allows for scalability of powers.
(Consistent: tending to be arbitrarily close to the true value of the parameter estimated as the sample becomes large)

But do you see what I mean about the supported munchkinny point crock for Ablative DR?
Not only does is not scale properly, as it makes little sense at the low levels, ie. anything below 20 DR, but it also becomes a totally bogus point crock at higher point levels, ie. anything over 40 DR.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I aim for consistency. I don't always hit it, but it is a goal.

I find consistency in assigning values is one of the things which allows for scalability of powers.
(Consistent: tending to be arbitrarily close to the true value of the parameter estimated as the sample becomes large)

But do you see what I mean about the supported munchkinny point crock for Ablative DR?
Not only does is not scale properly, as it makes little sense at the low levels, ie. anything below 20 DR, but it also becomes a totally bogus point crock at higher point levels, ie. anything over 40 DR.

I agree that you're going for the consistancy. I don't agree with your assessment on the Regeneration. Maybe it's because I am looking at it from the Regeneration advantage viewpoint where you are looking at it from the Damage Resistance advantage viewpoint. Different points of view, different opinions. But hey, differences of opinions are important. Without them the world would be a very boring place.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Maybe it's because I am looking at it from the Regeneration advantage viewpoint where you are looking at it from the Damage Resistance advantage viewpoint.

Could be.
Part of the problem though, seems to be that having Regen apply to Ablative DR seems to break Regen. Either way, balance ends up out the window.

[Mark Skarr]

Now, here's a suggestion. It may be a bad suggestion, but I'm going to make it. These numbers are also monkey ammo, so tweaking may be in order.

Ablative DR regen 1/day (-80%)
Ablative DR 1/12 hrs (-75%)
Ablative DR 1/hr (-60%)
Ablative DR 1/minute (-40%)
Ablative DR 1/sec (-25%)
Ablative DR 10/sec (-15%)
Ablative DR Full Recovery (-10%)

Now, the reason even the 10/sec is still a "substantial" limitation is that it really is. Each hit substantially reduces its ability to stop the next hit.
Now, if no hit ever breaches it, then it is just as useful as normal DR.
I admit that these numbers do leave something to be desired, but as I'm at work I can't do a lot of math.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Now, here's a suggestion.
[...]
Ablative DR regen 1/day (-80%)
Ablative DR 1/12 hrs (-75%)
Ablative DR 1/hr (-60%)
Ablative DR 1/minute (-40%)
Ablative DR 1/sec (-25%)
Ablative DR 10/sec (-15%)
Ablative DR Full Recovery (-10%)
[...]

I'm fine with the top 4, I'm not sure about the bottom 3.

They could be fine, or it might be better to drop them down 5%.
i.e.:
Ablative DR 1/sec (-20%)
Ablative DR 10/sec (-10%)
Ablative DR Full Recovery (-5%)

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Now, here's a suggestion. It may be a bad suggestion, but I'm going to make it. These numbers are also monkey ammo, so tweaking may be in order.

Ablative DR regen 1/day (-80%)
Ablative DR 1/12 hrs (-75%)
Ablative DR 1/hr (-60%)
Ablative DR 1/minute (-40%)
Ablative DR 1/sec (-25%)
Ablative DR 10/sec (-15%)
Ablative DR Full Recovery (-10%)

Now, the reason even the 10/sec is still a "substantial" limitation is that it really is. Each hit substantially reduces its ability to stop the next hit.
Now, if no hit ever breaches it, then it is just as useful as normal DR.
I admit that these numbers do leave something to be desired, but as I'm at work I can't do a lot of math.

Your suggestion could work, but only if you stipulate that the Regeneration advantage does not work on DR (and that the sidebar from p 424 doesn't apply either).

See, the thing is, even at your 10/sec rate, a player could save more cp by just buying Extreme Regeneration [150], High Pain Threshold [10], and Extra HP at +2 each. You'd save points your way up up to DR 63 (62.2 actually, but you can't have .2 DR). But by buying the advantages and +54 HP, you start spending less than your Ablative DR(regen 10/sec) at 64, and even get HP which regenerate at 60 HP per sec, which is a drastic improvement over a DR 64 which regenerates at 10 DR per sec.
- or -
Someone could buy Extreme Regeneration [150] and the "standard" ablative DR (-80%) and have a "break even" point at DR 47, in which below DR 47 your way is less expensive but after DR 47 the "normal" way is less expensive.

I do understand that people want to make this a DR change, but it can't just be a DR change. To "fix" this you'd have to completely rework the entire DR and Regeneration advantages ( and possibly the entire HP recovery system as well), making them a "percentage" based system instead of a point based system.