multiple damage, weapon master and other weirdness

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Fair point, but again, I'm talking about WM (All), so if natural weapons are powered by muscles...

But are not weapons as defined by items/tools

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Fair point, but again, I'm talking about WM (All), so if natural weapons are powered by muscles...

If your reasoning is correct, then it stands to reason one could justify Weapon Master (Fists), and yet no such example is given. Your entire argument hinges on the ambiguity of "muscle-powered weapons." Why would "All" be acceptable, but "Fist" not. And if fist is acceptable, then why would Fist gain a bonus, and not Cestus?

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

If your reasoning is correct, then it stands to reason one could justify Weapon Master (Fists), and yet no such example is given. Your entire argument hinges on the ambiguity of "muscle-powered weapons." Why would "All" be acceptable, but "Fist" not. And if fist is acceptable, then why would Fist gain a bonus, and not Cestus?

Because they're different weapons... and going by the principle that specific forms of WM go by the weapon listings on the tables, it's actually WM (Punch), with WM (Natural Weapons) being a more common level.

And I'd allow these forms of WM, but wouldn't recommend them, since as I don't believe the damage bonuses from WM and Boxing or Karate or Sumo Wrestling would stack, they wouldn't be very cost effective. Maybe you could rely on Brawling and get a slight improvement in damage there, but even that doesn't strike me as very appealing.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

But are not weapons as defined by items/tools

Never said they were. Just as weapons. AFAICT, 'arms' must generally mean weapons that are external items/tools, so that 'unarmed' means without such weapons (arms) and retaining only your natural weapons. When you take all other weapons away, in other words, you're left with your natural ones.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Because they're different weapons... and going by the principle that specific forms of WM go by the weapon listings on the tables, it's actually WM (Punch), with WM (Natural Weapons) being a more common level.

So you have no problem with cesti not getting the same bonus as a fist? Or, presumably, the reverse, if someone took "WM (Cesti Only)."

Then why did you say this:

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Although - let me ask this a different way. Weapon Master (All) still includes all muscle-powered weapons, correct? So, in you're view that would presumably include saps and cesti. Therefore, somebody with WM (All) will get the reduced penalties for Rapid Strike and multiple parries when fighting with a pair of cesti, yes? Do their hands get slower and their technique poorer if they remove the weighted spiked gloves?

Or are you going to tell me that a cestus is not a weapon?

Seems to me that your arguments are inconsistent.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Because they're different weapons... and going by the principle that specific forms of WM go by the weapon listings on the tables, it's actually WM (Punch), with WM (Natural Weapons) being a more common level.

I'd note, though it may not be relevant, that specific forms of WM do not go by the weapon listings on the tables. I cite: Weapon Master (Bow) [20] on BS 317.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

So you have no problem with cesti not getting the same bonus as a fist? Or, presumably, the reverse, if someone took "WM (Cesti Only)."

Then why did you say this:



Seems to me that your arguments are inconsistent.

Seems to me you're right, and I acknowledged the weakness of the skill-based part of the argument up thread... ;-)

[simply Nathan]

'd note, though it may not be relevant, that specific forms of WM do not go by the weapon listings on the tables. I cite: Weapon Master (Bow) [20] on BS 317.

Likewise, Weapon Master (Knife/Main Gauche)[20], DF3, p.39.

The interpretation these suggest was my take on the advantage, until I saw lots of counter-arguements on this forum (including the FAQ), but the content of the actual books is indicating the other way.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'd note, though it may not be relevant, that specific forms of WM do not go by the weapon listings on the tables. I cite: Weapon Master (Bow) [20] on BS 317.

Huh. You're right. The question then becomes, which level are Punch or Fist, Cestus, Natural Weapons, etc. It seems clear that punches are different from kicks or claws or teeth, so all of those would be specific at the same level as Bow. Then would Natural Weapons as a whole be a tight group like fencing weapons, or a large group like all swords?

Ah, well. Either way, it's still not terribly cost effective considering the damage bonuses you already get from the unarmed combat skills.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I reviewed all TD's posts on the topic, and it doesn't really look like it - think I'm just going to stick with saying that the words mean what they say ;-)

Did you try asking by PM or email? Seriously, that seems like the sensible course to take... you're unlikely to get anything more 'official' in this thread.