[MA] Best dirty-fighting style for a callous weakling?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Which is, of course, something GURPS should permit. However, it will cost you a bunch of points.

I agree.

I may think that it should cost slightly more points than it does, but that's a quibble.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Well, if he has a certain level of skill and physical development. Superior skill matters, and degree of superiority matters, it's just that in the real world there's pretty strong limits to just how good you can actually be, and in general speed is heavily correlated with muscle development anyway (there's a reason track stars and gymnasts are solid blocks of muscle).

I have no martial art training to speak of and my physical development mostly consists of getting fatter and more out of shape. ;)

But that doesn't change the fact that during an exhibition of self-defence for women, the ca 120 lbs. kumite champ trying to demonstrate her moves on me without asking me to cooperate first found herself simply unable to do so.

Skill allows one to apply force more efficiently, but that doesn't help much of there isn't all that much force to draw upon in the first place. If my one hand is enough to pin her without much effort, she can't arm lock me or throw me without my willing cooperation. And if she wants to impede me by punching me in the solar plexus, neck or nerve centres, she'll need more muscle behind her punch.

Maybe if she was supernaturally faster and had precognition, I guess, but at typical human levels of skill, it's just not going to happen. The size and strength disparity is simply too telling.

And that's while I was unwilling to strike back or do anything except hold her still with one hand. If I'd been prepared to hurt her, I doubt it would have improved her chances.

This is one example where the weaker party has about fifteen years of intense training in a sparring sport and teaches self-defence for women and the stronger party is a sedentary gamer without any formalised martial art training. If that's not enough of a skill disparity, I simply don't know what could be.

My opinion, at least, is that in the real world strength matters far more than skill or speed. Unarmed, at least.

Weapons are designed to change that, by allowing a weaker person to defeat a stronger one. But until weapons which were independent from muscle strength were developed, it was still vitally important to be stronger.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

This is true, up to a point. I'm a fairly tiny guy - 5' 6" and 140 lbs. when I'm in training, which is exacerbated by the fact that the average height for men around here is about two or three inches higher than it is nationally. When I was competing, I was often up against a guy one or even two weight classes above me. Holding my own wasn't easy, and by necessity required a different approach and thinking, but it can be done. Later, working bar security professionally (at a nightclub that catered to punks, metalheads, and bikers) I often faced guys who were bigger than I am, although less well-practiced. Moving first (High Basic Speed), getting the manuver in and using leverage (decent Judo skill), and knowing what you want to do and doing it first (Combat Reflexes), and just plain never giving up (decent HP and HT) does count for something.

Plus, not all big guys are equivalent. I'm a big guy--250 lb. or so on most days--but that's including a 40% body fat ratio. In theory a 150 lb. guy with 0% body fat could have a larger muscle mass than I do. I wonder how many bikers and metalheads were actually bigger than you in terms of muscle mass.

-Max

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Plus, not all big guys are equivalent. I'm a big guy--250 lb. or so on most days--but that's including a 40% body fat ratio. In theory a 150 lb. guy with 0% body fat could have a larger muscle mass than I do. I wonder how many bikers and metalheads were actually bigger than you in terms of muscle mass.

-Max

Muscle mass counts, of course, but just plain mass is also very hard to deal with once grappling range is reached.

Power lifters who can lift anywhere up to twice what I can lift under optimum circumstances, but weight 20-50 lbs. less, are still at a hefty disadvantage in grappling with me.

If someone has a basic idea of how to take advantage of it, pure mass is quite effective in a clinch. There are plenty of ways to make your whole body hinder or leverage the other guy.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Muscle mass counts, of course, but just plain mass is also very hard to deal with once grappling range is reached.

Power lifters who can lift anywhere up to twice what I can lift under optimum circumstances, but weight 20-50 lbs. less, are still at a hefty disadvantage in grappling with me.

That might have something to do with which muscles they've trained (ratio of leg strength is probably nowhere near ratio of arm strength), though of course there's a reason sumo wrestlers and football linemen build up non-muscle mass.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That might have something to do with which muscles they've trained (ratio of leg strength is probably nowhere near ratio of arm strength), though of course there's a reason sumo wrestlers and football linemen build up non-muscle mass.

It has a lot to do with that, I expect. The kind of training they do appears to be very focused and yield surprisingly little benefit when it comes to more broad and ad-hoc applications of strength.

But yeah, in a clash between a 200 lbs. boxer and a 250 lbs. football lineman, I'll bet on the lineman, as long as he has at least equal mental capacity to hurt others. Even if they have the same lean muscle mass. It's possible to prevent a determined opponent from closing, but it's damn hard. And once it's close, it's generally down to mass.

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by Icelander

But yeah, in a clash between a 200 lbs. boxer and a 250 lbs. football lineman, I'll bet on the lineman, as long as he has at least equal mental capacity to hurt others. Even if they have the same lean muscle mass. It's possible to prevent a determined opponent from closing, but it's damn hard. And once it's close, it's generally down to mass.

Not always. Mass is certainly a factor, and it can be difficult for a smaller mass fighter to overcome a large difference, but it is possible to close the gap. If nothing else, I think the career of Royce Gracie is one demonstration of that. And a good, combat-trained juijutsuka or akijuutsuka, not to mention a practioner of Silat or Eskrima, will have techniques to help vs. large mass grapplers. Really - momentum matters.

But that doesn't change the fact that during an exhibition of self-defence for women, the ca 120 lbs. kumite champ trying to demonstrate her moves on me without asking me to cooperate first found herself simply unable to do so.

A question: were you actively attempting to move on her, or did she have to come in and attack you?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Not always. Mass is certainly a factor, and it can be difficult for a smaller mass fighter to overcome a large difference, but it is possible to close the gap. If nothing else, I think the career of Royce Gracie is one demonstration of that. And a good, combat-trained juijutsuka or akijuutsuka, not to mention a practioner of Silat or Eskrima, will have techniques to help vs. large mass grapplers. Really - momentum matters.

Very true.

On the other hand, Royce Gracie isn't below average strength. Sure, he's closer to an average human than some of the giants he fought, but he's still a strong man.

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

A question: were you actively attempting to move on her, or did she have to come in and attack you?

She asked me to grab her and then tried to perform some arm lock. I grabbed her and then held on. Nothing she could do would move my hand, since she just wasn't strong enough.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Icelander

On the other hand, Royce Gracie isn't below average strength.

While most games choose to ignore this, as it's not really a cinematic trope, the concept of the weak-but-fast or weak-but-agile character is mostly mythical -- being fast and agile requires high strength relative to your size, and someone who is noticeably above average in speed and agility, unless tiny, is probably stronger than the average adult. It's possible to be strong and slow, but not the reverse.

In GURPS terms, it would probably be realistic to limit DX with a wide variety of activities (for a start, acrobatics and all melee combat skills) to (10 * Striking ST/HP), where HP is assumed be calculated strictly from mass, and limit basic speed to half that value. This might require recosting some abilities to be balanced, or assigning an actual point value to mass.

[Kyle Aaron]

Trachmyr made some good points, I think. However, I would note that many of his points, when expressed in GURPS terms, don't talk about skill as such, but Dis/Advantages and Attributes.

For example, people who "forget" their martial arts training during a violent confrontation. In GURPS terms, what has probably happened is that the GM said, "first real fight ever? Make a Fright Check."

Also, in reality many people have a Phobia of suffering or inflicting physical harm on another. GURPS expresses this as Pacificism: Cannot Kill, or Cowardice, but doesn't get it precisely right, because it's not aiming at realism as such, more a sort of "gamer's cinematic realism", where things are basically realistic, but warped a bit to take in all the crazy movies we gamers watch, and the funny ideas we tend to have.

As for the original poster and their character, a lot depends on whether the GM is offering a realistic-themed world, or a cinematic one. In a realistic-themed world things like Intimidation and a common Phobia of harm will matter, which allows small weaklings to do well if they're vicious. Ever see Joe Pesci in Goodfellahs? I can't quote him here because of his extraordinary amount of profanity, but in essence he's a little guy who does well simply by being nastier and more determined than everyone else.

In a cinematic world, the little guy will always get stomped because the big guy is indifferent to harming or being harmed, and is never frightened except by a bigger guy.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Anthony

While most games choose to ignore this, as it's not really a cinematic trope, the concept of the weak-but-fast or weak-but-agile character is mostly mythical -- being fast and agile requires high strength relative to your size, and someone who is noticeably above average in speed and agility, unless tiny, is probably stronger than the average adult. It's possible to be strong and slow, but not the reverse.

In GURPS terms, it would probably be realistic to limit DX with a wide variety of activities (for a start, acrobatics and all melee combat skills) to (10 * Striking ST/HP), where HP is assumed be calculated strictly from mass, and limit basic speed to half that value. This might require recosting some abilities to be balanced, or assigning an actual point value to mass.

Or just do what one always has to do in GURPS, make sure that the character's stats fit the concept.

Just because GURPS allows a given combination of Attributes or Traits doesn't mean that a realistic world has to contain someone with those stats. When using the rules for mythic or cinematic play, you use mythic and cinematic tropes. When the game is supposed to be set in a world with plausible physics, we try to aim for plausible characters.

And in a realistic world, any dedicated combat character will have at least a decent ST score.