[MA] Best dirty-fighting style for a callous weakling?

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In real life, weight classes exist for a reason. World class competitors in fighting sports tend to perform badly when matched against someone far out of their weight class. And those aren't people with below average ST, just ones that aren't as strong as the other guy. Once you get to underfed and physically weak people, they just aren't going to be able to perform all the neat tricks they learned in their Aikido classes against a resisting opponent.

This is true, up to a point. I'm a fairly tiny guy - 5' 6" and 140 lbs. when I'm in training, which is exacerbated by the fact that the average height for men around here is about two or three inches higher than it is nationally. When I was competing, I was often up against a guy one or even two weight classes above me. Holding my own wasn't easy, and by necessity required a different approach and thinking, but it can be done. Later, working bar security professionally (at a nightclub that catered to punks, metalheads, and bikers) I often faced guys who were bigger than I am, although less well-practiced. Moving first (High Basic Speed), getting the manuver in and using leverage (decent Judo skill), and knowing what you want to do and doing it first (Combat Reflexes), and just plain never giving up (decent HP and HT) does count for something.

[jimminy]

I run a game where one player is an Assassin, as in, the real deal, Islamic sect Nizari. He's not too strong (ST 11) considering he constantly must fight guys in chainmail, but he does better than make do.

He has the 'Dagger Fighting' style from Martial Arts. He has high DX and Wrestling at DX +2, for the ST bonus. He usually employs a Large Knife.

The fight-stopper is 'Targeted Attack: Eye' at the max level, reducing half the penalty for attacking the eye. It doesn't always work... and you can't always get in for the grapple... But when it does, needless to say, the fight is over. That would certainly fit someone who is Callous!

He only needs to use Grappling long enough to get a bit of an edge in Close Combat, and then, pow (or should I say, pop?) so not having AMAZING ST doesn't matter.

ST 8 though, I don't know... But the TA could still be a doozy.

Otherwise he uses a Composite Bow and a Spear (which is, as has been mentioned, a great everyman weapon for any Low-Tech character).

His high DX is the key. He doesn't have Weapon Bond or a Very Fine Quality Large Knife, but they wouldn't hurt.

Of course, that's not UNARMED combat, but a finger poke to the eye might still lead someone to surrender (or pass out).

[Trachmyr]

I'd like to chime in on Art/Sport skills... Often I hear that so-in-so martial arts only teaches art or sport and you're not learning the real combat skill. This kind of disparagement against art/sport version is unwarranted, and I think there's some misunderstandings.

First, it's very hard to find a way to actually train in the Combat Skill... this doesn't just include martial arts, but all combat skills. Most people who have trained on the range or hunted non-dangerous game have Pistol/Rifle Sport. Most impressive Knife fighters have Knife Art, and so on. Unless your learning in a situation where real danger exists, you don't have the actual combat skill. Even most soldiers and cops have firearms sport unless they've seen actual combat, then they probably have a few point in the actual skill to buy off some of the default. So unless your practicing by carving people up, take Knife art. Unless your a veteran soldier/swat that's seen actual combat, take Pistol Sport. No matter how long you've trained in martial arts, unless you have actually been in numerous unarmed combat where life and limb are at stake, don't take the actual combat skill... you never learned it.

I've trained a long time... but that training IS in Art/Sport skills... and I don't feel bad at all about that. I've also been in enough real combat to probably have enough points to buy down the Combat Skill default from -3 to -2... But that's ok, I don't work for organized crime, so even buying down the default that much relates to being in more dangerous situations than you could ever tell your mother about.

A well rounded and effective fighter who has formally trained should have high levels of art/sport skill... and these aren't simply for exhibition and tournaments, they have a use IRL.

The problem with training is that when you find yourself in a dangerous situation (unless you've been in so many that you have the physical and mental scars to show for it), you switch to Flight or Fight... this is subconscious, and there's no room for the complex maneuvers and strategic thinking in your subconscious. Most people who have trained for a while, or even years, regretfully find out that they FORGET EVERYTHING they've learned... in fact Brawling would be more useful!

This is where Art forms (kata) comes in... it's an art, a dance, a rhythm and flow that trains your body... not your head. Kata stays with you even in flight or fight... your body responds without you telling it too, it comes naturally and instinctively. Kata can save your life.

Unfortunately few people see the value of kata, they pay lip-service to it a best, certainly they don't practice it the way they're supposed to. Thus they never train they're body to react and respond, and it back to panic and flailing your limbs.

Sport skills try to beat Flight or Fight by granting you a measure of control over it. While sport isn't lethal, and risk of serious injury is fairly low... you're going to get hit, and you're going to get hurt. If you do it for a while and you haven't broken something yet, you're either VERY lucky or you're not truly engaging. I count 3 broken ribs, twice my nose being broken, and one broken finger from just SPARRING... it got worse in real bouts, that's why I left the circuit... misjudged catching a kick, broke 7 ribs, damn near punctured my lung.

Sports skills allow you to fight through the initial fear reaction... I've been here, I've done that, I can take a punch and stay standing, I can handle blood, etc. Sport skills won't give you Combat Reflexes, but they'll buy off the innate levels of Combat Paralysis that MOST EVERYONE has... you can keep your head and think you're way through a fight.

With Sports/Arts combination, you will not only be able to keep your head, but you'll react quicker... and to things you didn't see coming.

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This is all very hard to codify in a game... but next time you make a combat based character, think about the art/sport skills... not just the combat version, it gives more authenticity to a character.

As a side note, I have a few friends that have also taken Martial Arts for varying numbers of years... and a lot of friends who haven't. I always find it interesting that those with the experience always take at least one of the art/sport versions... sometimes making the art/sport skill the highest. The players w/o the experience tend to be the ones that don't bother wasting points on art/sports.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

I'd like to chime in on Art/Sport skills... Often I hear that so-in-so martial arts only teaches art or sport and you're not learning the real combat skill. This kind of disparagement against art/sport version is unwarranted, and I think there's some misunderstandings....I always find it interesting that those with the experience always take at least one of the art/sport versions... sometimes making the art/sport skill the highest. The players w/o the experience tend to be the ones that don't bother wasting points on art/sports.

This was a pretty thoughtful post, I enjoyed reading it.

I think for many, especially those who have neither fought "for real" nor trained in anything, clarification that "real fighting" is different in many ways from sparring or fairly friendly joint manipulation is both useful and informative. Your point about fight or flight and trained response is real, but so is the observation that you fight like you train, train like you fight.

Occasionally, and it may be real or apocryphal, one hears about (say) a Judo guy who's mugged by two. The story I heard had him body scissors the first, KOing him on a car door. Second guy stabs at him with a knife, he does a takedown and armbar, and the guy pounds the ground, whereupon Judoguy releases him, and then gets stabbed nearly to death, because that's what you do when someone taps...

And my friend, who spars TKD rules, and I, where takedowns are allowed. After the first leg catch and sweep...a lot of what he knew was much more tentative.

And the 50th degree black belt in whatever who's never really been CLOCKED in the jaw, and doesn't know how to shake it off?

All of these things probably are better rated as buying off either unfamiliarity with combat (and obtaining familiarity is a time-based thing, not points) or buying off the delta between Art, Sport, and Combat as a Technique..possibly a Hard one (so the initial cost is 2pts).

I have a friend who studies HRD with me who used to be a bouncer, studied Muay Thai fighting, and rides with bikers a lot. His comment about our HRD techniques? "They work. However they're only decisive if you are."

Now, all that being said, a lot of MMA, Boxing, and even competition grappling I think is more likely to either be Combat skill, or have points bought off that Technique I mentioned earlier. You can go "all out" in those more freely within your skill and you really get hit (boxing), bent (grappling) or both (MMA).

I know of some other arts where you go all out, but the real issue, as far as I can tell, for the Sport/Art/Combat division is that the assumption is when you're used to (say) Sport application, you simply don't train against what isn't allowed by the rules. Is there a Boxing gym that teaches what happens when someone shoots in and takes you down? My old sport Fencing teacher professed spectacular ignorance about "real" swords and swordsmanship - that wasn't what he was about.

On the flip side, I was invited to a friend's TKD school, and THAT teacher went out of the way to teach kick retraction, blended some Hapkido techniques, and generally went out of his way to ensure that not only was Olympic TKD taught, but also some stuff that didn't involve face-bashing (for escalation of force situations in real life) and defenses and attacks against someone not playing by your own rules (that was a fun, sweaty three hour visit).

Anyway, I did enjoy your post; I think there's some real merit to the Art/Sport/Combat division, but probably not as harsh as the game lays it out.

[Xplo]

Isn't putting points into Art/Sport skills a waste, though? The combat versions are much more effective. The only reasons I can think of to put points into Art/Sport skills are that you really, really want your character to be written up accurately, or that your GM won't let you buy the combat versions.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Isn't putting points into Art/Sport skills a waste, though? The combat versions are much more effective. The only reasons I can think of to put points into Art/Sport skills are that you really, really want your character to be written up accurately, or that your GM won't let you buy the combat versions.

Or if performance at Combat Art/Sport is actually more important than fighting.

[Trachmyr]

At the risk of hijacking this thread even more...

DouglasCole: Thank you first off, I'm glad that you found it interesting.

As to some of your points:

• I've know a lot of people who have trained seriously in martial arts, even black belts (which by the way is actually the beginning of your training, everything up to that is only the basics so that you and your instructer can "speak the same language") who have been put down by a guy or couple of guys with what amounts to a few points in brawling. It's actually quite common.

• A first degree black without any actual fighting experience belt is like a brain surgeon who just passed med school but has yet to work on any living patient.... would you want that guy working on you? Knowledge is one thing, experience is quite another.

• Most of Martial Artists that lose a fight say honestly that they simply forgot how to fight... it happens.

• A martial Artist that can hold his own is not someone who takes classes once a week... they practice, all the time, at home in there free time, by whatever private classes they can afford or arrange. They spar, in every open sparing time available. they check out other dojos, they go to exhibitions, it's a large part of their LIFE... it's not a past time.

• A little bit of training can give you a little bit of an edge... if you stay calm in a fight, but that's rare.

• Kata is designed to train reflexive movements... parry, counters, grapple breaks, etc. It like the difference between someone who can speak a foreign language... and someone who can think in that language... precious moments are lost in translation of "This is what is happening... so, this is what I need to do... okay right outward parry, rotate to grab, etc...

• If you've never been hit for real... you don't have combat skill

[LIST]I would still say that MMA fighters train in sport... they may have actual combat skill depending on their experiences, but in the ring it's still sport. The reason is simply, no matter how vicious the fight is, no matter how "no hold barred", no matter how much a fighter beats someone to a pulp... the goal is to win the fight. The goal with combat skills is to kill. That might seem like an exageration, but does any soldier attempt anything less than to kill their opponent? Special forces, abductions, etc. aside... when real combat breaks out, your goal is to kill or permanently disable (if you fail to kill) your opponent as quickly as possible. If your life's on the line, you act decivly, lethaly and cold if you want to live.

• Few people train to kill.... they may learn how to kill as a secondary effect of their training, but that just screams [I]default. And by the way, delibrate attempts to kill your opponent is against the rules in any MMA fight. Consider, it takes only 5 pounds of concentrated force to crush someone's windpipe... only a bit more to rip open the throat. A tru combat skill use of an arm lock doesn't inflict pain, it mixes a hand strike (or whole body movement) against the tension of the elbow to permanently break it... the damage cannot usually be repaired. This is Combat application, it's brutal and quick... because the longer you have to fight, the greater the chance is that you are going to get killed.

• A lot of dojos recently in the past few decades have taken steps to minimize the weakness of their style's form when used in a real fight. This is a good thing. You also see more mixing of styles in the same dojo, also a good thing. Dojos are a buisness, and they sell self-defense... so they have to compete to show that they're the "best choice".

• As to what individual schools teach... well that's up to the sensei/sifu, and is based a lot on the instructer's own experience.... if he's never been in a real fight, how can he teach you combat skill? But even if you find the "right" teacher that has all that wonderful combat experience to offer... why would he teach you those skills? There has to be a motivation on his part, and a dedication on the student's.... he's certainly not going to offer that traing to joe schmoe who shows up on every wendsday class... Often the best way to learn the "premium skills" is to become a student teacher... help out, reduce the instructer's workload... and be patient.

• The division between art/sport/combat is more than "you don't learn this, and you don't learn that... but you do learn this". Art tends to be exagerrated... depending on the style, perhaps too quick... to slow... to overextended.... or lacking the required power. It's all about the art. Kata can also be relaxing and calming to the mind and spirit. Sport is about learning how to fight WITHOUT killing your opponent and minimizing unnessicary injury. I have caught myself in a few real fights pulling my own punches! This is especially true when I target the throat or joints. Also, becuse your trying to avoid serious injury, you speed and or power is reduced. But on the flipside, you know your opponent isn't out to kill you, so you're more inclined to try high-risk tactics, especially when loosing.

• My only major problem with the game division of combat/sport/art is that there is less synergy between the skills. Someone with DX+6 combat and DX+5 art should gain some bonus for being more "well rounded"... especially if they also have DX+5 Sport.

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Xplo: By the game mechanics, if the only thing you'll use that skill for is actual combat, then yes it is a waste of points. I as a GM do restrict what skills a character has acess to in a realistic game... that restriction is based on the character's concept.

Take a medeval swordsman... barely a man, just setting off for adventure... with a broadsword skill of 16! Well, if it's a DF game... sure no prob. But in a realistic game I ask "Where did you learn that?". Now show me a veteran mercenary with the same skill (or higher) that also has disadvantages and auxillary skills that tell me "This is the life I led", then I have no problems. It's kinda like the Unusual Background advantage, but instead of points wasted, I want to see the points spent in the supporting details.

In all honesty, I'm probably harsher on when I allow someone to take Combat skill than the original designer's intended.... but I do think realistic and fully fleshed out vharacters are their own reward, go go far to support the game.

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Ulzgoroth: Exactly, particularly in a modern day setting.... the most common [Icapable Martial Arts fighters will be competitive fighters, or be instructers/student-instructers at a dojo... in which case the art/sport skill represents their livlihood.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

• My only major problem with the game division of combat/sport/art is that there is less synergy between the skills. Someone with DX+6 combat and DX+5 art should gain some bonus for being more "well rounded"... especially if they also have DX+5 Sport.

Yea. By reading this thread and your post I'm starting to lean towards Art/Sport/combat being different techniques off of a basic skill. And not complete skills in themself.

So maybe have Judo and then Judo(Art) and Judo(Combat) as techniques bought up from that maybe at a default of -4 or -6.

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

<snip>
I have a friend who studies HRD with me who used to be a bouncer, studied Muay Thai fighting, and rides with bikers a lot. His comment about our HRD techniques? "They work. However they're only decisive if you are."

Now, all that being said, a lot of MMA, Boxing, and even competition grappling I think is more likely to either be Combat skill, or have points bought off that Technique I mentioned earlier. You can go "all out" in those more freely within your skill and you really get hit (boxing), bent (grappling) or both (MMA).

I think this is spot on.

I know of some other arts where you go all out, but the real issue, as far as I can tell, for the Sport/Art/Combat division is that the assumption is when you're used to (say) Sport application, you simply don't train against what isn't allowed by the rules. Is there a Boxing gym that teaches what happens when someone shoots in and takes you down? My old sport Fencing teacher professed spectacular ignorance about "real" swords and swordsmanship - that wasn't what he was about.

On the flip side, I was invited to a friend's TKD school, and THAT teacher went out of the way to teach kick retraction, blended some Hapkido techniques, and generally went out of his way to ensure that not only was Olympic TKD taught, but also some stuff that didn't involve face-bashing (for escalation of force situations in real life) and defenses and attacks against someone not playing by your own rules (that was a fun, sweaty three hour visit).

Precisely. Although I competed asa Thai kickboxer, I trained in a Jeet Kune Do concepts school that blended Muay Thai with Jun Fan Kung Fu, Kali, Malay Silat, Juijutsu. and Savate. I learned ground techniques, upright grappling techniques, throws, weapons, and a bunch of other things that I couldn't do in the ring. So I feel like it was pretty complete training, not sport or art focused.

On the other hand, fighting in the ring certainly toughened me up, helped teach me to take a punch, how to respond in an adrenaline situation (even though the stakes aren't lethal, it is still real pain and real exhaustion and to a certain extent real damage one has to deal with). That sort of fighting also taught me in a visceral way what techniques worked for me and what didn't. I think it counts as combat practice.
......
Trachmyr, you make many valid points, but I think maybe you've set the standards for training a bit too high. While I might agree that it would be very hard to gain a very high GURPS skill level in unarmed combat without seeing unarmed combat, I do think you can gain true combat-ready skills through the right kind of training.

Of course, my approach to such things is built heavily on JKD concepts and what I learned to call attribute theory - that what a practitioner is training is the attributes (things like strength, speed, power, awareness, and many more) that make using their manuvers successful. I also believe good training program that focuses on combat readiness is important. In many ways the truism "It's not the art, it's the artist" is accurate.

Still, this is the kind of martial arts philosophy that people have argued over for decades and centuries. It's a game, so interpret reality however works best for you.
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Originally Posted by Trachmyr

The goal with combat skills is to kill. That might seem like an exageration, but does any soldier attempt anything less than to kill their opponent? Special forces, abductions, etc. aside... when real combat breaks out, your goal is to kill or permanently disable (if you fail to kill) your opponent as quickly as possible. If your life's on the line, you act decisevly, lethaly and cold if you want to live.

I disagree somewhat here. Maybe it was just a different focus in my training, but my goal was always to render the opponent "incapable of harming me or anyone else". While in some circumstances that might mean being prepared to attack them in a potentially lethal way, killing was not the primary goal. Escaping the situation, incapacitating the opponent, reducing their willingness to continue, or surviving until additional help (like law enforcement) can be brought to bear are all just as good. And while special forces types may all be taught to be really aggressive, it's not uncommon for soldiers to accept less than lethal results from combat: enemies wounded or taken prisoner, opposing forces driven off, and so on.

When I was working, it was a whole different situation, too. Then, I couldn't use lethal force unless lethal force had been or looked like it could be used upon me. Going for the throat might have left someone dead and me in jail - not a successful outcome.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Maz

Yea. By reading this thread and your post I'm starting to lean towards Art/Sport/combat being different techniques off of a basic skill. And not complete skills in themself.

Arguably it's not even a feature of skill, it's a feature of some advantage (probably combat reflexes, except that one's overloaded enough as is).