Japan, Merlin-1, and Infinite Worlds

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by maximara

What would there be to negotiate? The key problem would be the issue of the Japanese getting to keep their emperor.

I don't know whether I'd call that the key problem; aside from the symbolism, it's barely a minor problem.

Key problems would include (but not be limited to):

• how much of their military force Japan gets to keep;
• whether foreign soldiers will be allowed to occupy Japan, and if so, how many;
• what punitive damages, if any, Japan has to pay the countries it waged war against;
• how much of Manchuria and the Solomons, if any, Japan gets to keep; and
• whether any of the people in positions of power (military or civilian) will be charged with war crimes.

It's not as if this was an unconditional surrender (the way it was in OTL); the Japanese have some rights...

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by maximara

First, we now know Stalin had an agent in the Manhattan Project so he would know the test was a disaster.

But that creates other problems--like what the blazes was the US doing from July 17 to Aug 13??

Trinity was a disaster in the sense that there was a massive storm in the midst of the American desert scaring the hell out of the USA and assumptions about atomics had been proven wrong. HOWEVER, no one at that point knew it was a magical event

The US could have dropped Little Boy or Fat Man on Japan... and it would have been *even more* devastating since in addition to the fireball, the stationary tornado (Hellstorm) effect would have precluded any rebuilding or medical treatment. This was apparent to both the US, the Soviets (thanks to espionage) and made clear to the Japanese.

The US attitude was "we'd rather not drop this thing on Japan until we know just what went wrong... but if we don't have a choice, we will."

As for the US doing things in the period ... during negotiations they would have continued to bomb the crap out of Japan with multiple 80-100-plane B-29 missions per day, as well as crippling their industry dropping mines around coasts, as they did historically during the period between the dropping of the a-bombs while they were negotiating. Actually, they'd have done it more intensely, since they were deliberately using smaller missions to get the Japanese used to small plane formations...

[combatmedic]

There's also the option of chemical warfare being used against the Japanese, possibly to attack their rice crops.

[ardashir]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

There's also the option of chemical warfare being used against the Japanese, possibly to attack their rice crops.

OT, but if America had gone through with Operation Downfall, wasn't the government and military planning to nail every single Japanese city with something like a total of several tons worth of poison gas?

[David L Pulver]

The reason why Stalin ordered the second Hellstorm was that there was still every chance that the a-bomb could be weaponized.

The US didn't know much about it - so Stalin's spies couldn't tell him anything.

The big question was: would a second bomb create another Hellstorm? Was it proportional to bomb size? Was the bomb really connected to the strange paranormal events being observed in the American south-west? Etc.

If the Hellstorm was one-of-a-kind, something to do with a bizarre failure in the US program, Russia needed to know. If it wasn't, well, better to have odd paranormal stuff happening in Antarctica... at the time, the fact the the bomb was a blessing in disguise, sort of, was by no means certain.

Stalin or his successors would have probably used a remote area of the USSR to test their third device if they had found the bomb created a controllable mana area. Given that data instead showed that a third bomb would risk regional devastation and a fourth would destroy the world, that was not practical...

[Gedrin]

of course, as time goes on, it may be that the magical expertise increases to the point that the Hellstorm causing effect can be countered. One would hope so. Not because that allows the use of nukes, but because otherwise mere possession of a nuke allows you to destroy the world in a hellstorm cataclysm without even needing to set it off anywhere in particular. It turns them from city destroying weaponsto world enders.

As for the timing of Imperial Japan's surrender, it went that way because few of the hard liners were still alive. Many of them committed suicide shortly after the test, accepting responsibility for their military failures. This left the Emperor a freer hand to act. One can only guess at the reasons for such a string of suicides, but rumors about traditionalist ninjas, loyal to the Emperor, who preserved their ancient mysticism and found themselves suddenly empowered are certainly unfounded.
What we do know is that the army of Japan surrendered with the Emperor's honor intact and he was never "humanized" during the occupation. Certainly, today's Japan is no longer imperial, but the family still retains a great deal of power. This undercurrent network of old style connections of loyalty and family seem to lightly touch all aspects of Japanese culture, and the emperor is still the spiritual leader of Japan.
Did Japan's surrender allow the US bases in Asia and a place from which to oppose the USSR? Surely. Was this an aliance of convenience for Japan? Perhaps. Did the emperor and his secret assassins forge an alliance that exchanged mundane protection for the opportunity to participate in studies of the US mana band? Maybe. Whatever the original reasons, and their shadowy implications for the present, that agreement lead to the current state of affairs.

[pnewman]

Originally Posted by Gedrin

As for the timing of Imperial Japan's surrender, it went that way because few of the hard liners were still alive. Many of them committed suicide shortly after the test, accepting responsibility for their military failures. This left the Emperor a freer hand to act. One can only guess at the reasons for such a string of suicides, but rumors about traditionalist ninjas, loyal to the Emperor, who preserved their ancient mysticism and found themselves suddenly empowered are certainly unfounded.

Consider the psychological effects as well- if we live in a rationalistic scientific universe than the idea that the Emperor's are descended from the Gods is just a story. If magic is real, than the gods could be real too, and maybe the Emperor truly is descended from them?

[ardashir]

Originally Posted by Gedrin

As for the timing of Imperial Japan's surrender, it went that way because few of the hard liners were still alive. Many of them committed suicide shortly after the test, accepting responsibility for their military failures. This left the Emperor a freer hand to act. One can only guess at the reasons for such a string of suicides, but rumors about traditionalist ninjas, loyal to the Emperor, who preserved their ancient mysticism and found themselves suddenly empowered are certainly unfounded.
What we do know is that the army of Japan surrendered with the Emperor's honor intact and he was never "humanized" during the occupation. Certainly, today's Japan is no longer imperial, but the family still retains a great deal of power. This undercurrent network of old style connections of loyalty and family seem to lightly touch all aspects of Japanese culture, and the emperor is still the spiritual leader of Japan.
Did Japan's surrender allow the US bases in Asia and a place from which to oppose the USSR? Surely. Was this an aliance of convenience for Japan? Perhaps. Did the emperor and his secret assassins forge an alliance that exchanged mundane protection for the opportunity to participate in studies of the US mana band? Maybe. Whatever the original reasons, and their shadowy implications for the present, that agreement lead to the current state of affairs.

See, this is one of the things I was hoping to see. Thanks for this version of events, Gedrin.

Another question while we're talking about Merlin-1 here: outside of the US of America and Mexico, what other nations have noticeable chimera populations? It was suggested that chimera births are a response to high mana zones, which implies that there would be some chimera births outside the New World. Other high mana zones like, say, the Egyptian pyramids or some of the stone circles through Europe.

And (If Mister Pulver will be so kind), was there ever any idea on how chimeras are usually regarded outside of the US? I got the idea that they were probably mostly disliked or despised -- possibly as a reminder of American magical supremacy if nothing else -- but that small fringe communities (like the Vietnamese Montagnards as one example, or remaining traditional Mexican Indians) might view them as being sacred in some way.

And thanks again everyone for the responses you've been giving here.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

The reason why Stalin ordered the second Hellstorm was that there was still every chance that the a-bomb could be weaponized.

The US didn't know much about it - so Stalin's spies couldn't tell him anything.

The big question was: would a second bomb create another Hellstorm? Was it proportional to bomb size? Was the bomb really connected to the strange paranormal events being observed in the American south-west? Etc.

If the Hellstorm was one-of-a-kind, something to do with a bizarre failure in the US program, Russia needed to know. If it wasn't, well, better to have odd paranormal stuff happening in Antarctica... at the time, the fact the the bomb was a blessing in disguise, sort of, was by no means certain.

The key problem is that this is before the Antarctic Treaty (1959) and the only nations that had claims (which went from the edge of the continent to the pole) were down there were Argentina (1942), Australia (1933), Chile (1940), New Zealand (1924), Norway (1939), and United Kingdom (1908).

So for the USSR to detonate an atomic bomb anywhere in Antarctica they would effectively be bombing another nation's territory--an ACT OF WAR.
Worse the region expressly stated in Technomancer where the Soviet bomb was detonated "between Enderby and Queen Maud Land" belongs to Norway, Chile, Argentina, Australia, and United Kingdom. Great, act of war again five countries at once--an act of total brilliance. (sarcasm level at 11 here)

Given that we now know (it was revealed in 2005) that Stalin was poisoned in OTL in 1953 it is clear that after this piece of idiocy that Stalin was out of his mind and for the good of the USSR would have to be put down. You can easily see the text:

It is my sad duty to inform you fellow comrades that our beloved leader Stalin died yesterday, August 30, 1949. Doctors report it was a cerebral hemorrhage likely brought on by the new of the unauthorized testing of an atomic bomb in Antarctica which given this would be an senseless act of aggression against our allies against he Nazi hordes our beloved leader would never had agreed with. (I think you get the idea how they would likely butter this up).

Like I keep saying this stunt is stupid on so many levels it is impossible to see how Stalin would think it was a good idea.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Like I keep saying this stunt is stupid on so many levels it is impossible to see how Stalin would think it was a good idea.

Since I'm no fan of killer penguins I just moved the second Hellstorm to Siberia.