Japan, Merlin-1, and Infinite Worlds

[ardashir]

I have a question here that's been bugging me for some time.

Now, in the original Technomancer book, we're told that Japan surrendered in 1945 without being either bombed or invaded when some of their representatives saw what had happened at Trinity, i.e. the Hellstorm.

Just how likely would Japanese acceptance of a negotiated surrender have been? From what I've read of Japanese attitudes in WW2, it seems unlikely. (Or did someone learn how to use Mind Control magic, and use it on the Japanese to convince them to give up? Maybe they were using it all through the war? We are told in the book that magic existed before the Hellstorm, it just wasn't as powerful.)

And what effect might a negotiated surrender have on Japanese militarism after the war? IRL it was discredited by the fact that the war was a total failure, but if a 'stab in the back' legend got going in Japan things might be different. If nothing else I get the idea that pacifism might not be as popular in Japanese culture in Merlin-1 as it is in reality (and on Homeline Japan).

Thanks for any help.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by ardashir

I have a question here that's been bugging me for some time.

Now, in the original Technomancer book, we're told that Japan surrendered in 1945 without being either bombed or invaded when some of their representatives saw what had happened at Trinity, i.e. the Hellstorm.

Just how likely would Japanese acceptance of a negotiated surrender have been? From what I've read of Japanese attitudes in WW2, it seems unlikely.
Thanks for any help.

There's a decent argument that Japan's surrender might have been brought about by the Soviet entry into the war even without the a-bomb; accounts and records of Japanese decision making give both relatively equal weight, and also show that many leaders in Japan including the Emperor was contemplating surrender IF they could get a negotiated settlement. (Hardliners remained, of course... and even after the a-bomb and Russian entry, they were plotting a military coup.)

Japan was being strangled by US submarines and burned to ash by B-29 incendiary bomb raids. Japanese leadership was divided into two camps, one of whom wanted to fight to the death, the other wanted the best settlement that they could get. The main issue was the unconditional surrender demand.

But the Trinity Event should be seen as the UNITED STATES panicking due to the Trinity event and accepting Japanese surrender offer. Providing evidence to Japan was a PR move by the US to make what was seen as a disaster look like a weapon. We assume here that the US leadership were deeply shocked at what seemed like the fairly of Manhattan Project ...

[maximara]

Originally Posted by ardashir

I have a question here that's been bugging me for some time.

Now, in the original Technomancer book, we're told that Japan surrendered in 1945 without being either bombed or invaded when some of their representatives saw what had happened at Trinity, i.e. the Hellstorm.

Just how likely would Japanese acceptance of a negotiated surrender have been? From what I've read of Japanese attitudes in WW2, it seems unlikely. (Or did someone learn how to use Mind Control magic, and use it on the Japanese to convince them to give up? Maybe they were using it all through the war? We are told in the book that magic existed before the Hellstorm, it just wasn't as powerful.)

And what effect might a negotiated surrender have on Japanese militarism after the war? IRL it was discredited by the fact that the war was a total failure, but if a 'stab in the back' legend got going in Japan things might be different. If nothing else I get the idea that pacifism might not be as popular in Japanese culture in Merlin-1 as it is in reality (and on Homeline Japan).

Thanks for any help.

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

There's a decent argument that Japan's surrender might have been brought about by the Soviet entry into the war even without the a-bomb; accounts and records of Japanese decision making give both relatively equal weight, and also show that many leaders in Japan including the Emperor was contemplating surrender IF they could get a negotiated settlement. (Hardliners remained, of course... and even after the a-bomb and Russian entry, they were plotting a military coup.)

Japan was being strangled by US submarines and burned to ash by B-29 incendiary bomb raids. Japanese leadership was divided into two camps, one of whom wanted to fight to the death, the other wanted the best settlement that they could get. The main issue was the unconditional surrender demand.

But the Trinity Event should be seen as the UNITED STATES panicking due to the Trinity event and accepting Japanese surrender offer. Providing evidence to Japan was a PR move by the US to make what was seen as a disaster look like a weapon. We assume here that the US leadership were deeply shocked at what seemed like the fairly of Manhattan Project ...

If American Shogun is to be believed Hirohito was thinking about peace negotiations with the Allies as early as Feb 1942 (with Japan dictating terms) and by April 1943 there were signs he was looking for an exit strategy which became active attempts by July 1945.

The surrender of Japan is one of Technomancer's little logic headaches (the Antarctic event is the other one). First, we now know Stalin had an agent in the Manhattan Project so he would know the test was a disaster. Second, Japan was going through the Russians to try and set up more favorable terms with the Allies--everything indicates the Russians were simply string them along. Third, as mentioned you had the radical fight to the last person people in Japan itself.

With the gadget a bust all you really had was operation Downfall and that was going to be a blood bath or both sides. The problem is the author tries to have the war end on the same date it did in OTL: Aug 14. But that creates other problems--like what the blazes was the US doing from July 17 to Aug 13??

I have already pointed out the whole Antarctica thing make no blasted sense no matter how you look at it and to quote Wally West regarding fighting Killer Penguins: "..what has to be the STUPIDEST case in the history of superheroes" (Justice League International Annual #4 Page 52 panel 4). It was a really silly idea in 1990 when the Annual came out and was even dumber when Technomancer came out in 1998.

[ardashir]

Originally Posted by maximara

The surrender of Japan is one of Technomancer's little logic headaches (the Antarctic event is the other one).

I have already pointed out the whole Antarctica thing make no blasted sense no matter how you look at it and to quote Wally West regarding fighting Killer Penguins: "..what has to be the STUPIDEST case in the history of superheroes" (Justice League International Annual #4 Page 52 panel 4). It was a really silly idea in 1990 when the Annual came out and was even dumber when Technomancer came out in 1998.

Not to put words into Mister Pulver's mouth, but several years ag when I spoke briefly with him at a con concerning the (at then unreleased) Technomancer book, he said that there would probably be another Hellstorm created in the Pacific by a French nuclear test. Or so I seem to remember. But by then they already had the second Hellstorm in Antarctica.

Besides, I think he's said that the whole book is supposed to be slightly tongue-in-cheek, much like the Poul Anderson novels that partly inspired it.

[Akicita]

Originally Posted by ardashir

...much like the Poul Anderson novels that partly inspired it.

I must have missed that line when I first read this thread. I must also have missed a Poul Anderson novel I would have been interested in if you are correct. What would that be? <goes off in search of his copy of Technomancer to see if there was a bibliography...>

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Akicita

I must have missed that line when I first read this thread. I must also have missed a Poul Anderson novel I would have been interested in if you are correct. What would that be? <goes off in search of his copy of Technomancer to see if there was a bibliography...>

Operation Chaos.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by maximara

With the gadget a bust all you really had was operation Downfall and that was going to be a blood bath or both sides. The problem is the author tries to have the war end on the same date it did in OTL: Aug 14. But that creates other problems--like what the blazes was the US doing from July 17 to Aug 13??

Presumably negotiating the surrender terms.

Contracts don't write themselves, and a surrender is essentially a contract between two sides in a war: "As long as you do these things, we won't attack you any more and we'll let you say you won."

[combatmedic]

Penguin-Kommisar Squaawklov orders Maximara to report to the Penguin's Educational Collective for emergency re-education. Comrade Maximara shows disturbing counter-revolutionary and anti-social tendencies. This will be corrected.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Presumably negotiating the surrender terms.

Contracts don't write themselves, and a surrender is essentially a contract between two sides in a war: "As long as you do these things, we won't attack you any more and we'll let you say you won."

What would there be to negotiate? The key problem would be the issue of the Japanese getting to keep their emperor. Capra's "Know your Enemy-Japan" and the bond drive film "My Japan" both go into the whole dynamics as the US understood them. "My Japan" can also be seen as a preparation for Operation Downfall and the casualties the US army was predicting.

As for Stalin as early as 1946 the chimeras started appearing and we are asked to believe despite this information that Stalin still went ahead with building an atomic bomb have it lugged through some of the most remote terrain on the planet and detonat it on the South Pole.

The most mindnumbingly STUPID part is that since this is before the Antarctic Treaty (1959) parts of Antarctica are OWNED by other countries so detonating an atomic bomb there would be an ACT OF WAR if it wasn't on the part you owned.

All the countries with recognized claims went from the edge of the continent to the pole: Argentina (1942), Australia (1933), Chile (1940), New Zealand (1924), Norway (1939), and United Kingdom (1908)

Please note that not only is the USSR NOT on this list but EVERY ONE of these nations was a member of the Allies in WWII. As I said before detonating an atomic bomb at the South pole was idiotic and given it would likely trigger off WWIII even more so.

[Pomphis]

Originally Posted by maximara

The most mindnumbingly STUPID part is that since this is before the Antarctic Treaty (1959) parts of Antarctica are OWNED by other countries so detonating an atomic bomb there would be an ACT OF WAR if it wasn't on the part you owned.

"Owned" is a strong word. "Claimed" would be better. And not everybody recognized those claims. I find it very hard to believe that any of the relevant countries would choose to see this as an act of war. Fighting the USSR because they detonated a nuke somewhere in the antarctic ? So soon after WW2 ? The country that has the biggest military in the world and recently took berlin ? While most are still in the early stages of rebuilding ?
No way.