Active defense debate o_Ô

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I would disagree...not that I'm an expert or anything, but I know when things got dicey and I've walked into a combination or such (sparring), there's a tendency on my part to either close in and go to town, or pull back and try to recenter, this is also tends to be true when I was the one delivering the combination or such. My anectdotal experience and observation tends to reflect this as true for most people as well.
It's one of the things an attacker learns to do, if you overwhelm your opponent, and can keep up a flurry of blows and combinations after you first connect, the person on the receiving end will often feel overwhelmed, and either turtle up, back up fast, or try to break through the attack, in most situations though, their defenses will have been temporarily broken, and if they try to attack through your flurry, then they often open themselves up further.
Think of a boxing continuous combination or an axe flurry or staff-flowering, and the difficulty in breaking out of the receiving end of those. Often the defender, once hit, will continue to get hit, unless he can pull back, strike through, or his opponent's attacks falter due to exhaustion.

Agian that what Shock pentiles are for

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Luther

1) shock penalties are here for a reason

Granted.

Originally Posted by Luther

2) in the fraction of second between two blows, it's quite possible that you was already dodging the second one when hit by the first.

Which is why Sampo's suggestion works very well as well.
It's just a choice on how often you want to roll.

Originally Posted by Luther

3) "they tend to react a bit off": even following your logic, you should penalize Parry and Block too, not only Dodge.

I do, it's in the basic rules, there are penalties for Parry and Block after the first.

[Luther]

Hope the following clarifies.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Which is why Sampo's suggestion works very well as well. It's just a choice on how often you want to roll.

I disagree, Sampo's suggestion doesn't suffer the hit spiral problem. I think hit spiral is bad because in the fraction of second between two blows, it's quite possible that you was already dodging the second one when hit by the first.

Originally Posted by Ze'

I do, it's in the basic rules, there are penalties for Parry and Block after the first.

That's irrelevant. I was talking about the hit spiral, explaining why I don't like it and responding to:

Originally Posted by Ze'

when someone gets hit/hurt they tend to react a bit off

So, following your logic, when someone gets hit/hurt (that's different from multiple defenses) you should penalize Parry and Block as well. Your HR doesn't: if you have a more elaborate version, then post it.

[enpeze]

For a cinematic hollywood actionthe the rules in the rulebook are good. If you want some realism then it should be better to have a good houserule.

Why not reducing dodges to just one per turn? Regarding that one combat turn is just 1 sec. it seems a better simulation than dodging several times.

Another houserule would be a cumulative -2 for each dodge after the first .

And for pistols or guns I would not allow a dodge at all, except maybe in lucky cases where the circumstances are in favor of the dodger, (eg. there are some objects to jump behind, like barrels or so) even if the dodger is aware of the threat.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Luther

Hope the following clarifies.
I disagree, Sampo's suggestion doesn't suffer the hit spiral problem. I think hit spiral is bad because in the fraction of second between two blows, it's quite possible that you was already dodging the second one when hit by the first.

Then go with Sampo's suggestion. I did agree that was a good solution, it just has more dodge rolls than I prefer to use.

Originally Posted by Luther

That's irrelevant. I was talking about the hit spiral, explaining why I don't like it

It's relevant in that in the overall modeling of the action Parry/Block has minuses for multiple use but Dodge does not.

Regardless if you miss your first parry, your second parry is going to be penalized, and your third and fourth parries are going to be pretty ineffectual, if you can even move that fast. So in that situation, someone trying to parry four blows, will likely be hit by every blow after the first one he misses parrying. Isn't that a hit spiral by your definition?

Originally Posted by Luther

So, following your logic, when someone gets hit/hurt (that's different from multiple defenses) you should penalize Parry and Block as well. Your HR doesn't: if you have a more elaborate version, then post it.

I don't need a HR for that, it's called Shock, Knockdown, stun, etc., and it's all in basic.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

It's relevant...
[...]
I don't need a HR for that, it's called Shock, Knockdown, stun, etc., and it's all in basic.

All this talk originated from:

Originally Posted by Ze'

How is that any different from any other combat, and how is it in any way not realistic?

Originally Posted by Ze'

You don't feel that when someone gets hit/hurt they tend to react a bit off, and therefore open themselves up to follow up attacks unless they pull back to regroup?

Well, to make things short: no, I don't consider your HR more realistic than vanilla GURPS. If anything I think it's less realistic, and I already explained why.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Luther

All this talk originated from:Well, to make things short: no, I don't consider your HR more realistic than vanilla GURPS. If anything I think it's less realistic, and I already explained why.

You know, I sometimes wonder if you actually grok the point of a debate...

You said you don't believe a "hit spiral" to be realistic, that's fine, but where did you clarify what your expectation of a realistic post hit reaction is?

[Luther]

Originally Posted by enpeze

Why not reducing dodges to just one per turn? Regarding that one combat turn is just 1 sec. it seems a better simulation than dodging several times.

Keep in mind that Dodge roll's aren't multiple actions, it's one motion that puts you out of attacks' path. You roll for each attack to see how the Dodge was effective.

Another houserule would be a cumulative -2 for each dodge after the first.

Seems too harsh. The probabilities show that a cumulative -1 for each dodge after the first is roughly equivalent to Rapid Fire.

And for pistols or guns I would not allow a dodge at all, except maybe in lucky cases where the circumstances are in favor of the dodger, (eg. there are some objects to jump behind, like barrels or so) even if the dodger is aware of the threat.

If you don't allow a Dodge against firearm, be sure to penalize the attacker due to target's movement. It's a lot easier to shoot at stationary targets.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

You know, I sometimes wonder if you actually grok the point of a debate...

Curious, you make me feel the same.

Originally Posted by Ze'

You said you don't believe a "hit spiral" to be realistic, that's fine, but where did you clarify what your expectation of a realistic post hit reaction is?

Originally Posted by Luther

1) shock penalties are here for a reason

2) in the fraction of second between two blows, it's quite possible that you was already dodging the second one when hit by the first.

No reason to add a hit spiral. YMMV. <g>

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by enpeze

Why not reducing dodges to just one per turn?

I prefer 1/turn with no penalty, with subsequent dodges taking some penalty (though I'm not sure of the best number for the penalty).