Converting D&D to GURPS: Combat Comparison

[zorg]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Like Fragile (Brittle) and Fragile (Unnatural)

Right - if you even want to bother checking the correct traits. For a monster, it's sufficient to note "Destroyed upon reaching 0 HP, double damage from crushing attacks."

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by abates17

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

I would like to recommend my post about
converting an AD&D Black Naga for use in a GURPS game. Go for effect. Don't bother with all the math.

[abates17]

Originally Posted by Gavynn

I would like to recommend my post about
converting an AD&D Black Naga for use in a GURPS game. Go for effect. Don't bother with all the math.

Thanks for this! I just read through the entire thread, and it has definitely put things into perspective for me. You’re right: I am making this too hard. I’ve been worried about translating these strange attacks from D&D 4e into GURPS terms, when I can really just copy them over almost word for word and not worry about what powers or abilities they correspond to.

For example, taking an example from Dungeon Delve, a collection of small adventures for each level, there is an enemy with the attack:

Eye of Wrath: Ranged 5; +8 vs. Will; the target takes a -4 penalty to AC (save ends).

Now I suppose I could figure out which spell this corresponds to, but it would be just as easy to eyeball it and change it to:

Eye of Wrath (1 FP): Range 5; Resisted by Will-4; the target takes a -2 penalty to AC; a Will roll ends the effect.

That doesn’t seem like an unreasonable ability, and I’m sure a spell like that exists somewhere, but it’s not really necessary to look it up. Some of these special abilities may be a bit strange, and Bruno made many great suggestions about converting D&D terms to GURPS equivalents (for example, treating D&D “combat advantage” as “use when attacking an opponent from the side or rear”). But I’ve also realized that if I don’t like a special ability (I’m not a big fan of “strike your opponent and gain HP”), I can actually >gasp< CHANGE the effect myself!

As I work through this, I may post the results hear to get people’s thoughts, and I may need help figuring out equivalents of some of the more complex abilities. But at the very least, all of these suggestions have given me a really good starting point to work with.

Now, if I could just figure out how to deal with hit-point inflation. Does it seem unreasonable to have a Level 30 Red Dragon with 1390 hit points?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by abates17

For example, taking an example from Dungeon Delve, a collection of small adventures for each level, there is an enemy with the attack:

Eye of Wrath: Ranged 5; +8 vs. Will; the target takes a -4 penalty to AC (save ends).

Now I suppose I could figure out which spell this corresponds to, but it would be just as easy to eyeball it and change it to:

Eye of Wrath (1 FP): Range 5; Resisted by Will-4; the target takes a -2 penalty to AC; a Will roll ends the effect.

That one need a little more work do you actil me -2 penalty to Active Defenses or -2 penalty to DR ?

[abates17]

Ha! Oh yeah, AC doesn’t really apply, huh? I’ve been looking at D&D supplements for too long! So…-2 to active defenses. That works, right? Maybe if it was an acid attack or something, it would be -2 to DR.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by abates17

Now, if I could just figure out how to deal with hit-point inflation. Does it seem unreasonable to have a Level 30 Red Dragon with 1390 hit points?

You have the mass/weight for it?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

You have the mass/weight for it?

Well, I can't tell you exactly what a 'level 30 red dragon' means, but according the the 3.5 Draconomicon they can grow to SM+7 or +8 (40 yards) and mass 640 tons.

[Collective_Restraint]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Well, I can't tell you exactly what a 'level 30 red dragon' means, but according the the 3.5 Draconomicon they can grow to SM+7 or +8 (40 yards) and mass 640 tons.

A good way to eyeball HP is taking the cube root of the weight in pound then multiply by two (if I remember correctly, I don't have my books...). For example a 180-lbs man should have ST around 11 while a 12,000-lbs Elephant will have ST around 45. So the 640 tons dragon should have a ST around 217 (holy cow!). Don't forget that D&D does things cinematically. How could a regular man kill a 640 tons monstrosity with a sword realistically ?

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Well, I can't tell you exactly what a 'level 30 red dragon' means, but according the the 3.5 Draconomicon they can grow to SM+7 or +8 (40 yards) and mass 640 tons.

Having done quite a bit of work dealing with dragons for my campaigns and such... A typical western-styled dragon of human size would be about 10 feet from tip-to-tip (With about half that being tail), and weigh 150-200 pounds. Scaling up to 120 feet and keeping proportions the same, the weight goes up to 260,000-350,000 pounds (130-175 tons). 640 tons seems way too high. Working backwards, a 10-foot dragon that had the same proportions would weigh 740 pounds, which is far too high for a tip-to-tip length of 10 feet.

I imagine that 40 yard figure is it's "base" size, as in, how large its base is on the battle map, not its actual tip-to-tip length. 640 tons with consistant proportions seems to be more like 180-200 feet in length.

In either case (And assuming the same proportions, again), ST tends to simplify to about 1 per foot of length, barring supernatural strength. But that would just be a racial average, and a supernatural-by-nature dragon would likely have even higher.

(Basically, this is all assuming square-cube-law holds for weight, and then completely ignores it for purposes of flight, movement, etc. And yes, I probably put too much thought into this.)

In general, I'd recommend taking monsters from D&D and putting them in GURPS as being less of conversion, more of inspiration. Take what D&D presents, lay them out in real-world terms (Size, weight, speed, and descriptives of special powers), and then design that in GURPS. It takes a bit more work, because you can't simply convert some numbers instantly to stats, but it makes for far more detailed and realistic results in the end.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by abates17

Now, if I could just figure out how to deal with hit-point inflation. Does it seem unreasonable to have a Level 30 Red Dragon with 1390 hit points?

The problem with D&D hit points, no matter the edition, is that they don't only mean ability to take injuries. They also mean skill and luck or destiny.

Indeed, a warrior who reaches the level 20 is not far much bigger and stronger than when he was at level 1. He remains an ordinary man, who can be killed by one good axe blow (decapitation). But, during combat, he will loose his hit points much more slowly, which just means that he is harder to kill: he is able to avoid or reduce the effect of much more blows. A blow that was dangerous for him (a sword blow for instance) becomes a mere scratch...

This fact is emphasized by the way armors are handled. In D&D, armors don't reduce the strength of blows. They just help to avoid them, which give sometimes strange results: heavier is your armor, better is your dodge!

So, to my mind, it is not a good idea to translate D&D hit points in GURPS hit points, even with a conversion formula. It is a better idea to base hit points on the strength level, following GURPS rules... And if a D&D character has much more hit points than his strength would normally give him, this just mean that, in GURPS terms, he has got better defenses (a better dodge, a better skill or some advantages).

A warrior who reaches the level 20 doesn't become a muscle monster; he just becomes a much more trained warrior.