Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Where have I said that there should be a specific setting for DF?

The thread title? "...needs a bare-bones setting." As in ONE bare bones setting. A list of languages makes it specific, as does the requested list of Hidden Lore specialties.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The thread title? "...needs a bare-bones setting." As in ONE bare bones setting. A list of languages makes it specific, as does the requested list of Hidden Lore specialties.

No. Bare-bones and specific are opposites of each other.

[Captain-Captain]

"Bare Bones" won't do it. The success of DF as a .pdf series will justify a Setting Book (or several). Just to be marketable it'll probably go for $7.95 (though a $4.95 smaller version is possible) and run over 30 pages.

I'm basing this mostly on Riggsby's Tower of Octavius book.

And lots of details. ;)

[b-dog]

I will try to set up a game world and put it on the forums. The world I have in mind is a mix of Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu, Tolkien, and combination of many different myths and medieval times.

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

At the very least, Dungeon Fantasy needs a list of the languages within the setting, both living culture languages, special languages (Elemental Language, e.t.c.) and ancient languages. It's the kind of thing that some players will demand to be told about up front before they create their characters, and the kind of thing that an inexperienced GM will be unable to deliver.

I don't really think that it needs that. If the players are demanding an exhaustive list of the languages of the campaign world before character creations, the GM should just tell them they are not going to get that. The GM can just say, you are from such and such and place and have only had the opportunity to learn so and so. Players with more scholarly backgrounds can work with the GM one on one to come up with what other language or two the character has experience with. Many GMs are not going to be comfortable anyway with establishing a list of languages up front for fear of painting themselves into a corner as the story grows and evolves.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

I'm thinking the best solution would be a pseudo-European setting with a few major countries analogous to England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy, each with their own language, and a few common ancient languages (analogous to Latin, Greek and Arabic) and half a dozen obscure ancient languages (analogous to Egyptian, Babylonian, Sanskrit and so forth). Largely similar history as Europe, with an old empire that split into two parts, then collapsed due to barbarian invasions.

I really don’t think SJG needs to expend resources on something like this. Many gamers are familiar enough with basic European history to swipe it for “their campaign history” and wouldn’t need to buy a copy of “GURPS: Europe with all the Serial Numbers Filed Off.” But in the event that you do need something like that written out for a campaign word, just Google “History of Europe.” The first hit should be the Wikipedia entry for “History of Europe.” Copy that into a word processor and then start running search and replaces to change the names. Find and replace all “Rome” with “Alsteria” and all “France” with “Groumberwalden” and so forth and so on and you have your campaign history. Likewise with the languages. There is a Wikipedia entry for “Languages of Europe.” Copy it over to a word processor and start changing the names if you feel you need such a document to give the players at character creation.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Likewise, a master list of all Hidden Lore specializations would be good, because it prevents the GM from inventing new ones to thwart the players.

I completely do not understand this. Why would the GM be required to tell the players all the hidden lore specialties of the game before they encounter them? Why would they know something hidden before discovering it? Sounds meta-game to me.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Basically, there are a bunch of character creation questions that aren't answered in the PDFs published so far, and leaving it up to GM decision is doing a disservice to inexperienced GMs, because either they don't know that they have to make those decisions before gamestart, or else if a player demands it they will not be able to make good decisions that can stand throughout the campaign.

Well, as you point out, the setting is left for the GM. It does not cover that. While some GMs will want to have EVERYTHING worked out ahead of time, actually I more often find the mistake of the inexperienced GM is to think he or she MUST have all of that 110% worked out. Likewise if the players are demanding a complete list of all languages and hidden lore specialties of the game word at the outset of character creation, and inexperienced GM might think he or she should be able to give that to them and might even think he or she is being a bad GM for not having that at hand, whereas the experiences GM will simply tell them “No.”

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Gavynn

I completely do not understand this. Why would the GM be required to tell the players all the hidden lore specialties of the game before they encounter them? Why would they know something hidden before discovering it? Sounds meta-game to me.

The term "metagame" is inapplicable to events that take place prior to game start.


Also, the general problem is one of ability usefulness, and how finely areas of expertise and communications are divided.

If the setting only has a single ancient language, then my Scholar template character with Language Talent gets screwed, because the Wizard also knows Latin (and even the Bard might have it at Broken).

Likewise, if the setting has a dozen equally important ancient languages and three dozen less important ones, I'm forced to spend an unreasonable amount of CPs to make my Scholar capable of that which Scholar is entitled to be capable of. On top of the unrealism of there not being one or two ancient languages that can be said to be "primary" in that area.

An inexperienced GM is dangerously likely to commit excess, when making such decisions, regardless of whether he makes them consciously and proactively, or (more or less consciously) and reactively (i.e. when a player demands to be given basic information about the setting so that he can create his character), or unconsciosly.

Same with Hidden Lore. DF already has something like half a dozen mandatory Hidden Lore specialties (and a few more in DF5), and therefore already delineates some things. For instance, there is one Hidden Lore to cover all Undead, rather than a single Hidden Lore to cover all supernatural creature, or separate Hidden Lores to cover Liches, Southern Vampires, Northern Vampires and Western Lesbian Vampires.

Dividing too finely, when it comes to languages or mandatory skill specialties, is bad and will hurt some character concepts, even though those character concepts are perfectly legitimate - and inarguably legitimate because they are from Kromm's own hand!

Likewise, not dividing finely enough will also hurt some legitimate character concepts.

The GM has to hit the sweet range (not a spot because it isn't that exact), and avoid extremes. And the best way to do that is to do it before gamestart, and to do it with guidance (i.e. from DF6: The Setting) if you're an inexperienced GM.

And note that an experienced player can't easily compensate for an inexperienced GM. Not out here, in the real world.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

At the very least, Dungeon Fantasy needs a list of the languages within the setting, both living culture languages, special languages (Elemental Language, e.t.c.) and ancient languages. It's the kind of thing that some players will demand to be told about up front before they create their characters, and the kind of thing that an inexperienced GM will be unable to deliver.

I don't think Dungeon Fantasy needs a setting, it's intended to be "generic hack & slash", isn't it?
Plus, there are DOZENS of hack & slash fantasy settings...

About languages: I think DF assumes that everybody speaks Common, and that every race (including magical races such as Elementals, Spirits and so on) has its own "silly" language: Elven, Dwarven, Orcish...

I'm thinking the best solution would be a pseudo-European setting with a few major countries analogous to England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy, each with their own language, and a few common ancient languages (analogous to Latin, Greek and Arabic)

Simply buy GURPS Banestorm!

[TJA]

I would LOVE to see a DF setting!!!
Cannot emphasize this enough.

BUT PLEASE,don´t make it Yrth-like.
Real religions, real languages and real cultures have NOTHING to do in a Fantasy setting, IMHO!

Call it different: Blackcoasters, Firelanders, Kingdom of Ilyarrah, Cult of the Bloodgod, whatever - just FANTASY!

I realy hate to read about christians, islam, german, english, whatever ...
That´s not FANTASY!

:)

[mlangsdorf]

Below is the entirety of the world background I'm using for my DF game, which has had 12 experienced (and inexperienced) players game in it to date. No one has complained about the lack of information or needed to know more about ancient languages.

Background

In the history of the world, there have been many kingdoms, empires, republics, city-states, trade leagues, and other governments. Many have fallen.

The town of Polisberg sits on the shore of the Antillan Sea. To the east lies much of civilization. To the west, the unclaimed and wild lands of the Westmarch.

Delvers often come to Polisberg, seeking the wealth that can be violently recovered from the ruins and caves of the Westmarch.

The Westmarch is the mostly unclaimed ground between civilization and hostile realms. It has been fought over, conquered, lost, razed, and rebuilt over the years, but is currently mostly unoccupied. Various monsters, beasts, demons, undead, oozes, and things haunt the wilderness of the Westmarch, along with a few hardy (and often mad) souls.

The Westmarch is mostly rolling hills covered with forest and divided by rivers, though there are some swamps, plains, and mountain chains in the land. Scholars snidely point out that the Westmarch proper is only the central plains, and that the other territories commonly called the Westmarch have other, proper names. Most people ignore them.

A few caravan tracks and trade-roads cross through Westmarch, delivering rare goods at high prices.


If SJ Games wants to put out a default setting for DF that includes languages and hidden lores and whatnot, they certainly can. But I really don't see the point, as there are hundreds of DF style settings out there already and creating a new one takes less than an hour's effort.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Below is the entirety of the world background I'm using for my DF game, which has had 12 experienced (and inexperienced) players game in it to date. No one has complained about the lack of information or needed to know more about ancient languages.

You forgot to explain whether or not languages plays as big a role in the campaign as Kromm intended them to. Also, how many of your players created Scholars? How many created characters with Langauge Talent?