Questions about Contacts

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Molokh

I guess people will consider me ranting, but IME Contacts are not very cost-effective unless they're treated 'broadly'. If they're treated just as 'remotely accessible skills' of some sort, the PC is better off buying the skill for herself, and not bothering with contact rolls, reliability, and the limited number of uses.

I'm of a similar mind, but would probably go further and say that contacts are overpriced for being able to provide "useful information or small (pick any two of "quick," non-hazardous" or "inexpensive) favors..."

Consider this- if you take all the options at max level, you can get a 240pt Contact Group, with Skill 21, Freq of Appearance: Constantly, and Completely Reliable. Given, that's a very good contact to have, and you could go to whatever lengths you wish describing how superlative a contact group it is (having access to all Nobel prize winners of the last 2 decades, the governing board of the World Bank, or the inner circle of MJ-12), but basically you can still only request information or small favors from them once per day.

Dropping the same 240pts into Allies, however, gives you an Ally Group of 100 good friends with 100% of your point total, also Constantly Available.

Or, putting those 240pts into a Patron can buy the highest power level patron, such as a true god or national government, again Constantly Available, but also with a Special Ability, such as unusual reach in time or space.

Obviously this is an extreme case, but it illustrates my point and you could make similar comparisons at lower point levels. I've always felt when designing a character with a Contact that I was paying too much for what I would get out of him.

In one case, I wanted my high level PC to have access to the country's spy network. Buying it as a Contact Group would've cost around 100pts, for the level of skill, access and reliability I was aiming for, but then realised I could just as easily buy the head of the spy network as an Ally and let him pay the cost of the Contact Group. I'd basically have the same access to information, but it would only cost about 20pts. This is clearly a munchkinny thing to do, but was almost necessary because of the high cost of the contact.

The problem- Patrons, Contacts and Allies all have to pay for Power level and Frequency of Appearance. However, Patrons and Allies automatically have an implicit Reliabilty level of Usually or Completely, but only Contacts have to pay for it with the extra x2 or x3 multiplier.

My suggested solution- the default level of Reliabilty should be raised to at least Usual, or maybe Completely, with Unreliable becoming around x1/4 or x1/3, and Somewhat becoming x1/2.

I like warmachine's Authority modifier too, but would similarly suggest that the maximum level be the default of x1, otherwise you could max out all the modifiers and end up with a 480pt Contact Group, as per my example above.

[Mgellis]

I've noticed this problem, too. I think the idea is that the increased price allows you to buy a Contact whose effective skill is much higher than the actual skill of an Ally.

The question for me is not how much Contacts cost, but how to make them worth what you've paid for them.

So, I think that a Contact should include someone who will do things for you that most regular associates or acquaintances will not. They're willing to do special favors of one kind or another, such as giving you inside information, making introductions, etc. Nothing really dangerous, but definitely beyond routine. Otherwise, they're not really worth paying points for, are they?

I think a Contact should be willing to take some risks for you. Any street contact runs the risk that other criminals will hurt him or kill him for being a "snitch," after all. So a corporate contact might give you inside information (although you might have to bribe him for it...and some bribes are going to be things like a bottle of fine wine rather than cash) that could get him in trouble. What a Contact won't do is take direct action like breaking into someone's office for you--the example I used earlier about looking at files was probably a bad one--assassinating an enemy for you, etc. But they might "accidentally" leave a door unlocked for you, etc.

Mark

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

The question for me is not how much Contacts cost, but how to make them worth what you've paid for them.

So, I think that a Contact should include someone who will do things for you that most regular associates or acquaintances will not. They're willing to do special favors of one kind or another, such as giving you inside information, making introductions, etc. Nothing really dangerous, but definitely beyond routine. Otherwise, they're not really worth paying points for, are they?

Sure, you can easily extend what Contacts can do for you to a large but reasonable extent, such as a street contact giving you leads on arms dealers, backstreet surgeons, gang activity, etc, a range of information which could cover a fair bit of ground. However, I still think that falls way short of what you could get from a Patron of the same cost, eg divine intervention from your true god Patron. I really don't think you'd be able to give Contacts enough utility to make them worth putting the same points into something else.

Also, consider that a Patron's power is measured by the amount of influence they have in the world, ie utility to the adventurer, whereas a Contact's power is measured by their skill level, no matter what skill that is. So a Contact with a useful skill, such as Streetwise, Merchant or Criminology, is the same price as one with Knitting as their skill. You might say that a PC would be silly to spend points on a "useless" Contact, but it might make sense to their background. Likewise, I guess you could argue, an Ally's power is also measured by their character points, which could be all spent usefully or frivously.

The point of this ramble though, is that it's easier to get extra value out of some Contacts, who can do dangerous or useful favours, than others you've paid the same points for but are not so adventure-oriented. This isn't a strong argument about Contact-pricing though, you could say something similar about anything you choose to spend points on, but I'll let it stand for some consideration.

More importantly, I will also echo Molokh's sentiment that a Contact should be more useful than just sinking the same points into the PC taking the relevant skill. Indeed, it's often appropriate for the PC to have the same skill as their Contact- an ex-cop would have a high Criminology skill, but would still occassionally require help from a Criminology Contact in the force, I'm sure. But he should get a lot more out of it than just a straight roll against the skill which he could've made himself.

If that were the case, the Contact should actually cost less than buying the skill yourself, as they have the limitations of being usable only once per day, with limited availablility, etc.

[Mgellis]

I'm not sure we'll ever get a perfect balance, but I don't think Contacts are "broken."

We're really talking about apples and oranges here. A lot of the value depends on the character concept. How much do you pay for someone who effectively gives you another set of eyes and hands and another weapon to aim at the bad guy when you go into a crypt or up the Amazon or into battle against orcs? How much do you pay for someone who can scoop you out of trouble when you land in jail or some pocket dimension? And how much do you pay for someone who doesn't go anywhere with you but can give you information you need to complete a mission (morgue reports, what a local crime boss is up to, etc.) and which you probably could not have gotten otherwise? They're all valuable, but they're not the same things.

And I think that's one aspect of a Contact that is included in the cost. A Contact provides you with information or favors that you couldn't get in any other way because of who your character is. If you have a Patron, he may provide you with information (especially if the Patron is an organization) but a Contact is someone who gives you information even though you're an outsider (and possibly on opposing sides at times). That's part of what you're paying for.

Roughly speaking, Allies and Contacts usually end up costing about the same, so I think things are generally pretty well balanced. And the slight "errors" tend to work out in the end. In actual play, a 6-point Ally might be worth more than an 8-point Contact in the sense that he saves your life, but the 8-point Contact is worth his weight in gold when he gives you the clue you need to solve a mystery (and which you couldn't get otherwise without taking a lot of time and maybe some serious risks). If Contacts cost 30 or 40 points, I'd say things were seriously broken, but when we're on the level of things costing one or two points more than they're "worth," I don't think we need to worry too much (and, to be honest, at that level, I'm not sure you can prove the Advantage really costs "too much.")

(Having said this, I'd say if you actually buy a Contact Group, which can be 50 or 60 points, it should be pretty awesome in the level of information and service that you get from it. A Contact Group is like having an entire staff handling research or military planning for you, your own private detective agency to ferret out information about your enemies, a team of wizards providing you with any occult secret you desire, etc. Of course, I'd say Contact Groups like this are usually only suitable for superheroes, epic warrior-kings, someone running a secret government program, etc.)

Mark

[Phil Masters]

I think one has to envisage Allies as, essentially, PCs who don't happen to have a player attached. That is, sure, you can get a very capable 150 point Ally for your 150 point PC - but he's just going to be the sort of character who another player coming into the game might be able and allowed to create. In most games, that'll mean a footloose adventurer type who hangs out with the PCs, rightfully demands his own share of the loot and experience points, and justifies the GM throwing extra opponents at the group in any given fight scene. If no player would be allowed to define a PC as head of the national intelligence service or whatever, whether or not such an individual could be built on the points available, then no Ally can have that position. And if you are allowed to create an Ally who's the boss of MI-5, well, think of the difficulties the boss of MI-5 would face if and when his masters and underlings noticed that he was hanging out with a bunch of shady adventurers and showing them as much loyalty as he showed his job.

A Contact, on the other hand, is an extension of the PC's social reach and influence into other parts of society. He can be or work on pretty well anything, and while this link might need some explanation, the constraints are lighter. The head of MI-5 would take some justification as a Contact if you were playing Ivan Espionov from the Russian embassy, but mostly, the typical adventurer is a fairly plausible acquaintance for such a character - there'll be a certain amount of "You know I can't tell you that old chap" if you try and push the point, and the GM can have a certain amount of fun having your high-level Contacts suspended from duty when your PC manages to get himself wanted for crimes against the state, but this is a matter of useful friendship or favours owed, not back-guarding fellow adventurer status.

[vicky_molokh]

I don't see why an Ally as a MI5 boss is wrong while a Contact is okay. Or, more specifically, there's no indication that an Ally can't do the same stuff that Contacts can. And, I'm not sure why you think PCs/Allies necessarily most be 'loose', with no 'base of operations'.

Finally, if having Allies is a reason to increase the difficulty of challenges (e.g. the combat ones you mentioned), I don't understand the incentive behind paying points for Allies.

I'm sorry if I sound agressive. I know we can simply agree to disagree.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

I think Contacts are a little pricey for what they give you. Therefore I do not have much problem slightly extending what they can do with their skills. Allowing a cop's Criminology to get you information on the police force isn't such a stretch; asking Paulie to use his Streetwise to tell you who runs the area you are messing with is just as reasonable. As long as it fits the contact's skill in some way, I will let them roll for it, albeit with an appropriate penalty.

I do have a problem with them leaving doors unlocked for you, getting you passwords into restricted areas, stealing you files, etc. That is a bit much...you are definitely into "risk the existence of your Contact advantage" if you try that. I would let someone try, but they would need to handle it like any other such request to a normally friendly NPC. They might say no or get angry, they might temporarily cut off relations with you...or they might do it.

I think the usefulness of Contacts is they can sometimes get information for you that you cannot get otherwise, good roll or no. They can talk to people you might not get to talk to, do all this off-screen when you don't have the time, etc. They essentially give you another line out of your PC's normal reach to get more information. Sometimes you have the skill but just cannot justify the roll, because you couldn't have heard of a secret or obscure fact. It allows the PC another potential line to behind the GM screen, another roll to try to get clues/facts/interesting stuff they might not be able to get with a regular skill roll.

At least that is how I see it.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

I think Contacts are a little pricey for what they give you.

Compared to Allies? Maybe the pricing problem is on the other end.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Compared to Allies? Maybe the pricing problem is on the other end.

Is this going to become one of those "everything must be repriced" threads? Because then I'm out of here. I was trying to reply to the mgellis's concerns about Contact pricing and utility, not address the general issue of "how much is everything really worth in GURPS?"

[Mgellis]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Is this going to become one of those "everything must be repriced" threads? Because then I'm out of here. I was trying to reply to the mgellis's concerns about Contact pricing and utility, not address the general issue of "how much is everything really worth in GURPS?"

Yes, exactly. I never wanted to suggest that the Contacts advantage should be repriced; I was mostly interested in whether I properly understood how the advantage should be used in a campaign, character design, etc.

As this discussion has gone on, I am more convinced that the pricing on Contacts really isn't too high. I think the perception that they might be too high is because we think of Contacts as "not quite Allies," but they aren't. They're a different kind of social advantage.

An ally will help you do things. A contact can give you information that might not be available otherwise, based on your character concept. These are two different things. There's no reason why their costs should balance perfectly as long as they're both roughly in the same neighborhood, which they are.

What has emerged is that you simply use the one skill as a way to abstract the knowledge, experience, connections, etc. of the contact.

Now, of course, I'm thinking in terms of what is an acceptable favor and what isn't. Obviously, it depends on the contact and how reliable they are; that influences how far they'll go for you. But what are the things one should be able to expect as normal favors from a contact?

This is what jumps out at me...

* Introductions <-- a contact might put you in touch with people, put in a good word for you, etc. You'll have to do the rest, but these might be people who would be hard to reach otherwise.

* Grease the wheels <-- if your contact is part of a bureaucracy, he might be able to put any requests, forms, etc. on the fast track for you as long as doing so isn't breaking any important rules, even if Administration isn't his primary skill

* Give you a heads up <-- along with skill-based information, a contact might, if you ask him, let you know if anything big is going down. In some cases, this might be too much to ask (e.g., asking a contact at a military base about troop movements), but in other cases, you'll hear about a big arrest or the arrival of a V.I.P. or something else before other people do, which might be critical to solving a mystery, etc. (Some contacts might even warn you if you are the target of an investigation, but this would probably require them to be Usually or Completely Reliable, as there's an obvious risk involved in letting someone know this kind of information.)

Anything else?

Mark