MA style for horses

[Gef]

EDIT: Re-write of the style itself appears in post #19

Martial Art for Horses

In another thread I asked if hooves negated the penalty for kicking. Per Kromm, they don't. How then would I design a paladin's warhorse with the Kicking technique? Horses don't train at the dojo!

Or do they? I remembered an old Roleplayer article about horses for knights and cowboys, and e23 has it: Issue 21, article by Ann Dupuis. Let me recommend it for anyone who needs to design horse characters, such as Allies, even if the specific rules won't fit 4e. The article answers my question: good warhorses do undergo training, sometimes years of training, which we might as well call a "style" of martial arts. Most of the separate skills in the article would be aspects of the skill Mount in 4e, but endurance training might be better treated as Hiking or Running, and a horse can learn Swimming or Acrobatics either naturally or through training. Of course a horse can learn Brawling; its natural attacks include shoves, slams, tramples, and bites, so this is probably a better base combat skill than equine Karate. The article lists a skill called Airs Above the Ground which looks like a good place to find the Brawling Techniques of a warhorse:

LEVADE: Controlled rearing; the horse is nearly vertical. This sounds like it would have comparable game-mechanics to an Axe Kick – extra damage, and beating down defenses, and penalizing the horse's dodge. Normally, it only defaults to Karate, but let's give it to horses too because they have four legs. I reckon if a warhorse beats down defenses, a knight on its back could take advantage of the opening.

PESADE: Like a levade above but not so high, so I'll call it a Stamp Kick.

COURBETTE: Even more controlled rearing; the horse maintains the rear while hopping forward (treat as a step, no full move). The original article recommends a damage bonus, but let's think about this: If the horse can hold the pose, it takes up fewer hexes of area, and its rider is elevated above his usual position, and yes this would be sort of like buying off the Horizontal disad, which will improve damage. So I'm inclined to call this one a new technique: Three benefits, reduce length in hexes by 1, elevate 3' realative to a horse that can't do this trick, and don't count as Horizontal for next attack (effectively +1 damage against standing foes). So this defaults to Brawling at -3 (and thinking about it, this should take a further penalty for the encumbrance of a rider). Attacking ends the posture; if you don't attack (e.g., if you were waiting), roll at the start of each new turn to sustain it. This rule is the fruit of a thought experiment – if anyone has actual experience please correct me.

BALLOTADE and CROUPADE: The horse jumps (foreward for ballotade, in place for croupade) and gets a Dodge bonus. That sounds like Acrobatic Dodge to me.

CAPRIOLE: The horse combines a back kick with a jump as above. The original article suggests a damage bonus. Of course, a Back Kick normally requires Karate, but again I think it reasonable to make an exception for horses because they have no legs. If extra damage is required, I'd treat it as a Committed or All-Out Attack. However, maybe there should be some benefit to kicking with both hind legs at once.

CUTTING: This one's not part of the airs above the ground, but horses do “shove” other animals using their bodies since they don't have arms, and cowboys train their horses to cut an individual cow from the herd by this method. I'm gonna call this a Body Shove, a new technique that defaults to brawling at -1 for not using hands.

And after all this discussion, here at last is the style:

Airs Above the Ground (3)
In addition to the techniques discussed above, I took a hint from Bajutsu and added a few cinematic skills for horses which have been Trained by a Master, plus a perk that lets warhorses average their combat skill with Mount, instead of Tactics or Soldier, to roll for glory and survival in battle. Horses are unlikely to be promoted but can benefit their owners' reputations. One of the skills of advanced dressage is the pirouette, for which reason I've added Whirlwind Attack as well for those legendary horses. Clinch is in here for a specific purpose: The horse doesn't actually grab anyone, but it can pin a fallen foe by sitting on him (which per rules-as-written requires grappling the torso).
Recommended Traits: 4 Legs
Required Skills: Brawling, Mount
Optional Skills: Acrobatics, Flying Leap*, Hiking, Immovable Stance*, Jumping, Light Walk*, Power Blow*, Running, Stealth, Swimming
Techniques: Brawling – Axe Kick (Levade), Cabriole (Back Kick), Dual Attack*, Kicking, Stamp Kick (Pesade), Whirlwind Attack*, New Technique Body Shove, New Technique Courbette
Perks: Clinch, Skill Adaptation (Whirlwind Attack*), Special Setup (Mount => Battle Skill), Unusual Training (Dual Attack against single foe)

So, whaddya think?

[aesir23]

I like it.

I think running should be required though; it doesn't seem likely that any "dojo" would fail to include practice running.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Looks good to me. Couple thoughts:

Originally Posted by aesir23

I think running should be required though; it doesn't seem likely that any "dojo" would fail to include practice running.

Me Too.

Originally Posted by Gef

LEVADE: Controlled rearing; the horse is nearly vertical. This sounds like it would have comparable game-mechanics to an Axe Kick – extra damage, and beating down defenses, and penalizing the horse's dodge. Normally, it only defaults to Karate, but let's give it to horses too because they have four legs.

I'd probably allow a Brawling Default due to morphology, but charge the Skill Adaptation Perk for studied improvement.

Originally Posted by Gef

COURBETTE: Even more controlled rearing; the horse maintains the rear while hopping forward (treat as a step, no full move). The original article recommends a damage bonus, but let's think about this: If the horse can hold the pose, it takes up fewer hexes of area, and its rider is elevated above his usual position, and yes this would be sort of like buying off the Horizontal disad, which will improve damage. So I'm inclined to call this one a new technique: Three benefits, reduce length in hexes by 1, elevate 3' realative to a horse that can't do this trick, and don't count as Horizontal for next attack (effectively +1 damage against standing foes). So this defaults to Brawling at -3 (and thinking about it, this should take a further penalty for the encumbrance of a rider). Attacking ends the posture; if you don't attack (e.g., if you were waiting), roll at the start of each new turn to sustain it. This rule is the fruit of a thought experiment – if anyone has actual experience please correct me.

This sounds more like an Axe Kick / Levade performed with the AoA (Strong) option and adding Telegraphic Attack more than a new technique IMHO.

Originally Posted by Gef

CUTTING: This one's not part of the airs above the ground, but horses do “shove” other animals using their bodies since they don't have arms, and cowboys train their horses to cut an individual cow from the herd by this method. I'm gonna call this a Body Shove, a new technique that defaults to brawling at -1 for not using hands.

Again IMHO, but a "hands-free shove" is just a basic Slam without an AoA or much of a running start.

[Gef]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

>I think running should be required though; it doesn't seem likely that any "dojo" would fail to include practice running.

Of course you're right, and Acrobatics too. See what happens when I post in the wee hours. My thinking was that most horses would start with basic dressage and that these other skills would be advanced...but of course once you get into Brawling as a trained skill, which is to say once it becomes a style instead of Mount skill alone, you're already in an advanced school.

>>LEVADE: Controlled rearing...Axe Kick
>I'd probably allow a Brawling Default due to morphology, but charge the Skill Adaptation Perk for studied improvement.

Hmm. Per Ann's article, it's the most basic of the airs above the ground, and all the others build on the leg strength it builds. That would make the perk required, before spending 10 points on the style, and I find I don't care for that.

I will drop Stamp Kick; a re-read of Axe Kick says that it can work like a Stamp Kick. Prolly the diff between a Pesade & Levade is between committed and all-out attack.

>>COURBETTE: Even more controlled rearing; the horse maintains the rear while hopping forward (treat as a step, no full move).
>This sounds more like an Axe Kick / Levade performed with the AoA (Strong) option and adding Telegraphic Attack more than a new technique IMHO.

The point of this trick is that the horse stands up on its hind legs, and stays there. It can even move around, albeit slowly. The damage bonus only happens when it finally comes down. That's why I was trying to figure out what other purpose there might be for such a skill. Perhaps I should write it off to strength training with no game effect. I'll take another look, see if I can clean it up.

>>CUTTING:
>Again IMHO, but a "hands-free shove" is just a basic Slam without an AoA or much of a running start.

I'm inlcined to agree; horse "wrestling" involves running side-by-side and trying to push the other horse off course; cutting is the same thing but with livestock. Maybe this should be a slow contest of ST? Except that Ann makes it sound like a trainable technique, and I'm not sure how that aspect would work...but that's a matter for a different style, useful for cowboys instead of knights.

Shortly I'll post a re-write taking these ideas into consideration, and one more:

If a horse attacks with two hooves at the same time, is that two attacks? Suppose, for instance, that the horse rears and comes down with his full weight on you on one hoof, versus two hooves that hit at the same time. Likewise the capriole, a back kick with both legs together. I'm thinking for simplicity this should maybe add +1 damage, like an attack with a two-handed weapon, and not count as a Dual Attack. Do you two have any thoughts on that approach?

Thanks again,

GEF

[jacobmuller]

Truly impressive.

Two hooves for +1 damage sounds familiar, but, can't find it.

All those rearing attacks sound like great opportunities to gut a horse. There must be some kind of intimidation aspect - it might be a great target but who wants a ton of meat falling on their head. Intimidation as part of the rear? Fear checks for someone wanting to target the belly of a rearing horse? Or maybe it's part of foot-training - "...that horse belly looks like easy meat but it'll crush you flat faster than you can carve it..."

[Gef]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

All those rearing attacks sound like great opportunities to gut a horse. There must be some kind of intimidation aspect - it might be a great target but who wants a ton of meat falling on their head.

Horse rears and attacks, all on it's turn. Aha, you say, I'll maneuver in front of it and Wait for it to rear. So now you're making a stop hit to its least-barded location...but if it hits first, you take from ST 25 Brawling-based (DX+2 or better) Axe Kick as a Committed Attack from a Horizontal critter with iron shoes: 2d+5/cr...average 12 easily gets through non-magic armor with enough to hurt. Then you're at -1 to parry the knight's attack. Yep, definitely a risky move.

GEF

EDIT: Obviously, an infantryman won't be thinking in game-mechanical terms, but he'll be thinking that the hooves from that huge beast will be like getting hit by a strong man with mace, or worse...and yeah, I might roll a Will check to see if a mook is willing to try.

[Gef]

Reading through Ann's article, especially the stuff under dressage and high school, contrasts with game mechanics for the Mount skill. Under 4e rules, a well-trained mount gives a bonus to the rider's effective Riding skill. But from Ann's material, a REALLY well-trained mount can do things that an untrained rider can't imagine, or can't imagine a use for, or can't communicate to the horse. I'd expect for some things, you'd want both a proficient rider and a proficient mount. The question is, what things, and how would you model it? A case of using the lower skill? Riding skill limited to "Mount + X"?

GEF

EDIT: For a modern horse trained in Airs Above the Ground, I'll replace Brawling with Brawling Art.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Two hooves for +1 damage sounds familiar, but, can't find it.

GURPS is wonderfully vague about combat maneuvers; unless you winkle that reference, I think I'll just say that kicking with two hooves together is just one way to make a Strong Attack (committed or all-out). That's simpler than any mechanic for treating it as two separate attacks, and it kinda makes sense that a horse with two hooves off the ground would limit its defense options.

GEF

EDIT: If I make a committed attack in the form of a kick, then I can't dodge, but I can parry at penalty. However, if I'm a four-legged animal, I can't parry at all, right? So a horse (or a player making decisions on behalf of a horse character) would never have a reason to make a Committed Attack instead of an All-Out attack.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Gef

GURPS is wonderfully vague about combat maneuvers; unless you winkle that reference, I think I'll just say that kicking with two hooves together is just one way to make a Strong Attack (committed or all-out). That's simpler than any mechanic for treating it as two separate attacks, and it kinda makes sense that a horse with two hooves off the ground would limit its defense options.

I probably would've called it a DWA with the Unusual Training Perk, but I wouldn't really object to either method.

Originally Posted by Gef

EDIT: If I make a committed attack in the form of a kick, then I can't dodge, but I can parry at penalty. However, if I'm a four-legged animal, I can't parry at all, right? So a horse (or a player making decisions on behalf of a horse character) would never have a reason to make a Committed Attack instead of an All-Out attack.

Any mobile creature with an unarmed combat skill can attempt a Parry. See the box on 4e MA p 122 and the section titled "Parries With Legs or Feet" on p 123. Also, a CA allows you to take 1-2 Steps back if you want, while an AoA only allows movement forward, which can matter sometimes.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

All those rearing attacks sound like great opportunities to gut a horse.

I just read a wikipedia article (lookup Warhorse) that says airs above the ground "probably" weren't used in combat, for the reason you stated. For my purpose, that's irrelevant, because my campaign is fantasy, but for a historical campaign you might wanna substitute Brawling for Brawling Art if you agree with that opinion. On the basis of my thought experiment, I'd be unwilling to try a real-world experiement to see if I could deliver a disabling blow to the belly of a rearing horse with a melee weapon before it delivers a disabling blow to me.

GEF