Helms, Greaves and Gauntlets...

[Gudiomen]

The issue with low-TL armor weights is well adressed on these boards, specially metal armor, I've participated on several of the discussions.

Gathering from here and there I was able to create a table featuring suits of armor close to what I believe are historical weights, but a bit of it is still guesswork.

Particularly, I'm in the dark about the weights of head, feet and hand armor. Debates seem to have skipped this entirely and I wasn't able to find any sources with enough information to rely on for even an educated guess.

I know a bunch of you are really into historical stuff, Dan and Anthony come to mind, but others as well. Currently, I've extrapolated minor ajustments from the other ajustments to metal armor, but there are some differences.

For instance, I'm under the impression that the published GURPS TL1-4 armors are overweight from lack of historical information at the time and because they were based on immitation pieces (renaissance fair stuff, enthusiast blacksmith work, etc...) and not as expertly built as actual belic examples of the time. But, for helmets, pot-helms, etc... there probably isn't a lot of innacuracy (to my mind), I mean there's much you can go wrong with a barrel-helm...

So are the head-armor weights closer to historical data available or are the head, feet and hand armor available just as overweight as the rest of the armor in GURPS?

(P.s.: if anyone can point me to leign-man understandable sources, like pyramid, straight-forward articles, etc... I'd apreciate that too, if nothing else to fuel the debate)

[Gudiomen]

Since it's not source material, but house-rules I decided to post what I managed to scare up, so as to help the discussion along. Please feel free to point out any innacuracies, criticism is more than welcome!

Torso, Legs and Arms:
Cloth Armor, DR 1, 7 lbs, $100
Leather, DR 2, 16 lbs, $200
Reinforced Leather, DR 3, 20 lbs, $250
Light Mail, DR 3/2, 18 lbs, $1,750
Mail, DR 4/2, 30 lbs, $1,100
Heavy Mail/Double-Mail, DR 5/3 45 lbs, $550
Bronze Armor, DR 4, 40 lbs, $1,750
Light Scale/Lamellar, DR 4, 25 lbs, $1,000
Medium Scale/Lamellar, DR 5, 38 lbs, $1,375
Heavy Scale/Lamellar, DR 6, 50 lbs, $2,000
Scale-Mail, DR 6, 40 lbs, $7,500
Light Plate, DR 6, 35 lbs, 4,000
Heavy Plate, DR 7, 55 lbs, $6,000

Hands
Cloth Gloves, DR 1, negligeable, $15
Leather Gloves, DR 2, neg., $30
Reinforced Leather Gloves, DR 3, 1 lbs, $50
Gauntlets, DR 4, 2 lbs, $100
Heavy Gauntlets, DR 5, 2.5 lbs, $250

Feet
Shoes, DR 1, 1 lb, $40
Leather Boots, DR 2, 3 lbs, $80
Reinforced Boots, DR 3, 3.5 lbs, $100
Sabatons (over shoes), DR 4, 3 lbs, $150
Sabatons (over boots), DR 5, 4 lbs, $200

Head (B=brain, F=face, N=neck)
Cloth Cap (B), DR 1, $5
Hardened Leather Helm (B,F), DR 2, 0.5 lbs, $20
Reinforced Leather Helm (B,F), DR 3, 1 lb, $40
Bronze Helm (B,F), DR 4, 4.5 lbs, $160
Legionaire Helm (B,F), DR 4, 3.5 lbs, $150
Mail Coif (B, N), DR 4/2, 2.5 lbs, $60
Barrel Helm (B, F), DR 6, 5.5 lbs, $250
Steel Mask (F), DR 4, 1.5 lbs, $100
Full Helm (B, F, N), DR 7, 6 lbs, $350
Pot-Helm (B), DR 4, 3 lbs, $100

EDIT: the list is constantly being tweaked and edited as the discussion goes

[benz72]

My $0.02

Greaves and especially gauntlets nedd to be as light as possible. weight at the end of your extremities is 'harder' to move and slows you down.

Helmets, not so much. a nice heavy helmet that is well padded and sits well helps soak up soak up some of the momentum of an incoming shot. So lighter is not necessarily better.

Good luck, and thanks for the list

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by benz72

Helmets, not so much. a nice heavy helmet that is well padded and sits well helps soak up soak up some of the momentum of an incoming shot. So lighter is not necessarily better.

Yes, but the real question is... for the listed DR, are the weights correct?
A barrel-helm should weigh less than a full helm, since the full helm (iconic "beaked" visor helm) has more surface area and is equally or more thick (as DR implies). If you note my list, that's the case... but in RAW GURPS they both weigh 10 lbs, the full-helm covers more areas (neck) and has higher DR... perhaps the barrel-helm is made of wrough iron and the full-helm steel, wich would account for it being lighter for the area covered and having higher DR.
Beyond that, 10 lbs is roughly 5kg... wich seems a bit off on the heavy side to me. Wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by benz72

Good luck, and thanks for the list

No problem, I noticed a few topics on the matter of armor weights and thought I might share the table I'm currently using (still perfecting though).

[Verjigorm]

I was under the impression that Sabatons and Gauntlets were often very strongly built, and heavier than equivelent armor other the torso and limbs. The exteremities have a number of bones, which are quite fragile(I'm working with a fractured hand right now, lifting heavy boxes) and easily broken.

Of course, if historical art is anything to go by, extremity armor seems fairly rare, and often times not used. Semms alot of guys prefered to hav the flexibility and responsiveness of softer protection(gloves and turnshoes) to heavier armor that encumbers one. And armor that doesn't protect well seems to be pretty pointless.

For example, a 14th century harness, the Charburg #13 consists of bascinet, visor and aventail(11.75lbs), segmented breastplate(5.83lbs), arm harnesses(5.19lbs), gauntlets(2.07lbs), hauberk of mail(20.72lbs).

A 15th century german gothic harness of 57lbs consists of helmet(8.9lbs), gorget(2.92lbs), breastplate(6.4lbs), backplate and guard-reign(6.4lbs), taces(6.5lbs), pauldrons(4.40lbs), arms(6.84lbs), gauntlets(1.84lbs), cuisses(3.2lbs), greaves and sabatons(9.35lbs).

For comparison, a 51lb Milanese harnes, 15th century has greaves that weigh 3.75 lbs. Even if we double the weight of the gothic graves, we're still left with 2lbs of weight for the sabatons. And in all likelyhood, the greaves would not be THAT heavy. The arms weight between 2-3lbs each. Gauntlets and sabatons are absent.

Helmets do seem to hover at around 8-9lbs for most periods.

Source: Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction by Brian R. Price.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I was under the impression that Sabatons and Gauntlets were often very strongly built, and heavier than equivelent armor other the torso and limbs. The exteremities have a number of bones, which are quite fragile(I'm working with a fractured hand right now, lifting heavy boxes) and easily broken.

snip.

To be clear, I was talking about competing principles of design.
If you can make gauntlets that weigh nothing and don't bend/tear/shatter then you have made the perfect set

If you make a helmet with 0 mass, it may not protect as well due to it's inability to contribute static momentum to the head. (I'm all about making my opponent's weapon move as much material as possible when striking at my head)

Anyway, just trying to point out that there is a tradeoff that may change someones decision on what to call 'ideal' for a particular piece of armor.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

the Charburg #13 consists of [...] gauntlets(2.07lbs)

A 15th century german gothic [...] gauntlets(1.84lbs)

That seems to be in line with the 2 lb weight I used for gauntlets in general.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

For comparison, a 51lb Milanese harnes, 15th century has greaves that weigh 3.75 lbs. Even if we double the weight of the gothic graves, we're still left with 2lbs of weight for the sabatons. And in all likelyhood, the greaves would not be THAT heavy.

So would 5 lbs be reasonable for TL4 steel feet armor with appropriate padding/boots?

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Since it's not source material, but house-rules I decided to post what I managed to scare up, so as to help the discussion along. Please feel free to point out any innacuracies, criticism is more than welcome!

Torso, Legs and Arm:
Cloth Armor, DR 1, 14 lbs, $100

Where did you get the stats for the cloth armor? Is this a 20 layer jack? In my own calculations 10 layer jack is 7lbs... At 14lbs, i could assume its a 30 layer jack torso armor and 10 layer jack everywhere else.

from this
link wouldnt it be better to subdivide DR between cut/cr/imp+pi.

It would be DR 1/3/1 torso and DR 0/2/0 limbs in my calculations

although from the strategikon marching soldiers are advised against wearing armored greeves or leggings. making the ideal wear for armor as a long sleeved hauberk as you can find in many images online.

just my $0.02

[ArmoredSaint]

*I reserve this spot for posting a large amount of 15th century armour weights from a few museum catalogues when I get home tonight.

I think your greaves & sabatons are still too heavy, but at least you've done away with the official GURPS weight of 7(!!) pounds for sabatons...

*EDIT: In the interest of greater visibility, I have elected to post some weights on page three of this thread rather than here.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Where did you get the stats for the cloth armor? Is this a 20 layer jack? In my own calculations 10 layer jack is 7lbs... At 14lbs, i could assume its a 30 layer jack torso armor and 10 layer jack everywhere else.

If memory serves me it was from an article from Pyramid about historical weight of armor, weight is for torso PLUS sleeves PLUS leggings. 7 lbs is what I have fro winter clothing, I'm considering this quilted armor, though I'm not sure what variety, I'm not an expert at this at all.
You may have a point though, it's hard to imagine something like cloth armor wich is built for military purposes to have twice the weight of winter clothing and as much DR...

from this link wouldnt it be better to subdivide DR between cut/cr/imp+pi.

It would be DR 1/3/1 torso and DR 0/2/0 limbs in my calculations

I'm only going to adress weight chances, there's enough foreign crunch added that I'm not willing to add extra rules. While I do believe you have a point about this, and not just this armor but a lot of armor... I'm keeping simple on this one.

Originally Posted by ArmoredSaint

I think your greaves & sabatons are still too heavy, but at least you've done away with the official GURPS weight of 7(!!) pounds for sabatons...

What would be an appropriate weight? (though I'm guessing you'll post this latter in your "nook", hehe)

Originally Posted by Philomath

My boots are something like 5 pounds (edit: 80 oz according to Danner's site -- Flashpoint boots) and they don't even have steel reinforcement.

A single modern example is hard to use as reference, my gaucho boots weigh around 4 lbs at most and they're really hard leather. Most women's boots would actually qualify as shoes, since they are really supple compared to hard/thick leather.
Build has a lot to do with it, gaucho boots for instance are tight fit (like jokeys) while lots of boots are loose around the shin, that's added surface (more leather, more weigh) and they have thin, yet very hard leather soles, wich weigh much less than thick rubber soles we ordinarily see.
But again, you guys are right... 2 lbs for a pair of DR 2 boots is way underweigh.

As for reinforced leather, 4-4.5 lbs seems reasonable, since you don't need much to push hard leather boots into DR 3...

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

The weight of equipment for a typical medieval/renaissance man who measured 5'2" to 5'8" is going to be different from the weight of equipment for a typical modern man who measures 5'8" to 6'2".

Not to mention the weight difference between a boot made for my modern size 12(46) foot vs. a boot made for someone's medieval size 8(41) foot.

Excelent point! That's usually overlooked in all the discussions I've been in. Even a small reducement in volume is going to have a (comparatively) big effect on weight.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

See something like these Engineer Boots to see what I mean.

What are shanks? They're steel, wouldn't that'd make them reinforced and DR 3 (at least)? And they weigh only 4 lbs. That's a good justification for 4 lbs for reinforced leather (although the shins seem rather ordinary leather).