Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

[hal]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

A couple of medieval

A warhorse upkeep is equivalent to the Knight itself. A manor worth a knight's fee would be about 3,000 acres. 1,500 acres to support the knight and 1,500 to support the horse.

I'm not all that certain your figure of 3,000 acres is applicable here. The figures I get from reading various books are that in general, the knight's fee in England was around 1200 to 1800 acres of land. The Lord's demense was approximately one third of that while the remaining 2/3rds were those of the tenants themselves.

Using that baseline, the Knight required about 400 to 600 acres to support himself and his family as well as those things required to maintain his station - arguably not just one horse, but multiple horses.

Generally speaking, if an acre of meadowland is set aside for the production of hay, you're looking at about 2 tons worth of hay over the period of 1 year. As best as I can figure, that's about 1.5 tons for the first harvesting, and about a half ton for the second harvesting - but don't quote me on that. Information on oats production is readily available such that in general, like most grains, oats can generate about a 1:4 ratio of invested seedstock to yield. If you know the horse's weight and work load, you can generally figure out what the horse needs in food. All that remains then, is figuring out the cost of horseshoes, vet needs, supplemental foodstuffs and vitamins for the horse etc. Not to mention the wear and tear requiring maintenance of the leather saddles or reins or bits etc. All that however, is incidental to the original poster's intent - which was to discuss the horse's encumberance levels, its travelling speed, etc.

One thing that might be worth considering is that well kept horses might with the right diet and care from those charged with the horses care - may grant the horse the "VERY FIT" advantage, while standard care from less than "expert" level caretakers might keep the horse from sliding into unfit. Indifferent care of the horse or bad conditions etc, might lead to the horse being allowed to slide into unfit or even very unfit. Question is - how does that affect trying to simulate a horse of any breed?

For example, if you take the benchmarks of the very best horse of the very best "run" timewise or distance wise, the question would become "What is the general average" result, and could the exceptional results be a function of fit or very fit horses attempting to do what most horses cannot? That would be like assuming that one should build stats based on the very best sprinter and wonder why those stats seem out of synch with the rest of the race's normal achievements.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by hal

I'm not all that certain your figure of 3,000 acres is applicable here.

I doubled it by mistake. It is about 1,500 acres. 750 to support the knight and 750 to support the horses

Originally Posted by hal

The figures I get from reading various books are that in general, the knight's fee in England was around 1200 to 1800 acres of land. The Lord's demense was approximately one third of that while the remaining 2/3rds were those of the tenants themselves.

I read several books on medieval life. However in general for a condensed format I rely on the good people at Columbia Games and Harn Manor. The original and secondary sources have a broad range of values.

Everything I check indicates that the research behind Harn Manor is valid although arguments could be made (and are made on the Harnforums) about the precise numbers. We are talking inches here. More importantly Harn Manor distills all this down into game terms that are easy to use.

For the purpose of these example consider $4 = 1d or 1 silver Harnic Penny.

To maintain the required horses for the Knight's Fee the Knight will need to stable at least one Warhorse at 1,800d per year, and 2 Riding Horses at 900d each or another 1,800d. That is 2400d or 10 pounds per year.

The revenue that a fief generate is not straight forward. It consists of income from Woods, Crops, and Pasture. If you are using the generalized figures from Harn Manor (they also have individual crop breakdowns then the average manor can expect 60d per acre per harvest. The livestock on pasture can be expected to yield 90d per acre per year on the average. Harn Manor can also break down the livestock if you want to go to that level of detail.

Understand that while Harn Manor uses silver pennies everywhere only a small amount is ever converted into actual coinage. The rest is "in kind" represent bushels of grain and sacks of wool.

While One Horse and Two Riding Horse means a mere 60 acre can generate the support. When you account for expense, the fact that only part of the acreage is part of the lord's demense. The minimum viable Manor for a Knight approaches 1,500 acres.

According to Harn Manor Hay yields 40d per acre, oats 42d per acres. So the amount of acreage devoted for food for the horses would be around 90 acres.

To retain a Ostler or Stablemaster cost 1,300d per year and can look after 10 horses. A knight can expect to spend 3,000d for his expenses, 2,000d for his wife, and 1,000d for each of his children.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Doesn't this create a problem for knight characters built on a budget? Also should the value of the mount really be that much more than the riders arms and armor, or the ransom value of the knight himself?

Knight character built with wealth below Filthy Rich should be having problems.

An ahistorical fantasy knight with a warhorse and harness but no land to support him should be looking at Ally and/or Signature Gear for his horse and equipment.

As for arms and armour, I allow Fine and Very Fine armour, so the finest plate harness can reach $100,000 easily. Fine Plate harness would be more typical, but that's still going to cost $10,000+.

Ransom values don't figure large in my usual gaming, but I note that ancient Romans were ransomed for sums that reach millions of GURPS $ if we use the values for the sestertius given in GURPS Rome. If I remember correctly, a possibly apocryphal legend about Caesar indicates that some pirates charged a standard price for non-senatorial members of noble families that was about $60,000.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Doesn't this create a problem for knight characters built on a budget? Also should the value of the mount really be that much more than the riders arms and armor, or the ransom value of the knight himself?

Icelander's right. Historically there was no such thing as a knight with a budget. If you didn't meet minimum wealth requirements then you couldn't be a knight. Its as simple as that. GURPS will let you get around that with things such as Signiature Gear. I like Shawn's suggestions and also encourage him to expand this thread into an e23 publication.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Icelander's right. Historically there was no such thing as a knight with a budget. If you didn't meet minimum wealth requirements then you couldn't be a knight. Its as simple as that. GURPS will let you get around that with things such as Signiature Gear. I like Shawn's suggestions and also encourage him to expand this thread into an e23 publication.

I disagree there were Knights supported solely by their liege in a manner similar to a man-at-arms. Status was important as it gave access but Status do not equate to wealth in a medieval society.

The classic example is of a younger son, noble born, but no inheritance. That son would be forced to seek service with another lord relying on that lord for all his support. All he would have to offer is his skill at arms. Of course that lord would have to be wealthy enough to support multiple knights on what Harnmanor calls his household budget.

That unlanded Knight through war, rebellion, luck, or good service could wind up with a manor of his own. His arms and his horse likely be given as a gift by his liege along with the manor.

Now I am not saying this is typically but it wasn't rare either. And as the Middle Ages edged to the renaissance it became commoner and commoner as paid mercenary service becomes the norm instead of the feudal levy.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

I disagree there were Knights supported solely by their liege in a manner similar to a man-at-arms.

Of course, but depending on how well they're equipped, they might still qualify for Filthy Rich in GURPS terms.

Originally Posted by robertsconley

Status was important as it gave access but Status do not equate to wealth in a medieval society.

In GURPS terms, it usually has to, unless the character is supposed to have trouble maintaining his lifestyle.

In game terms, a knight who owns a destrier, palfrey and a couple of rouncies as well as arms and harness is usually Filthy Rich. The value of just this equipment, not counting anything else the knight may possess, is about 50 times starting wealth at TL3. Even a more modest knightly outfit of one courser and one rouncy plus less fancy arms and harness will not be available for under Very Wealthy levels. Whether he earned this wealth by serving another knight or he inherited it doesn't matter.

In game terms, such a knight has a job that is Very Wealthy or Filthy Rich and therefore takes that wealth level.

With the Patron (Provides expensive equipment +100%) Advantage, it's possible to create a knight who doesn't have any Wealth of his own and is utterly reliant on his lord, but that will generally not be much cheaper than buying Wealth. Indeed, if the character lives on his lord's manor, he can easily pay 60 points for his lord as a Patron.