Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

And why do we think that?

Because we've never seen it in action? Lots of people never seen god, but they believe in one; nobody's seen atoms in ancient Greece, yet they existed. One cannot prove the absence of that which one cannot perceive, but one can prove the presence of something one can perceive.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

But we can certainly imagine 3+4, which was my point, more or less.

Well, can you? You'll either produce something closer to a split TL, or you will produce an idea of a divergent civilization, but one that any random person would consider a fairytale or something like that.

[David Johnston2]

[QUOTE=Molokh]

Because we've never seen it in action?

But why haven't we seen it in action when those guys over there saw it in action when they were TL 3? We live in the same universe under the same laws right? Why couldn't we see what they saw when they saw it while limited pretty much to the Mark 1 eyeball as a method of perception. We can say "Well they have a superpower we don't"...but note in that case that while we will have trouble figuring out their technology, they'll have no trouble at all figuring out ours because they are the guys with the superpower and we aren't.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

But why haven't we seen it in action when those guys over there saw it in action when they were TL 3? We live in the same universe under the same laws right? Why couldn't we see what they saw when they saw it while limited pretty much to the Mark 1 eyeball as a method of perception. We can say "Well they have a superpower we don't"...but note in that case that while we will have trouble figuring out their technology, they'll have no trouble at all figuring out ours because they are the guys with the superpower and we aren't.

As an example, the type of resources available in the centers of civilization was different, so they went along a different path, and tech was spreading from centers to the rim. Or they have radically different thinking. Or perhaps they approached a problem from a different direction (an aquatic species and a terrestial one, when they meet in space, will have wildly different approaches to the issue of space flight).

Or, if we talk about magic, how about a world which has more magical problems than us. If humanity faced, say, magical plagues (which can be only diagnosed by analyzing counter-intuitive, obscure, minor phenomena which we currently consider mere superstition), it would probably be more inclined to explore those issues.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Well, can you? You'll either produce something closer to a split TL, or you will produce an idea of a divergent civilization, but one that any random person would consider a fairytale or something like that.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

[Manul]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

But we can certainly imagine 3+4, which was my point, more or less.

Do you mean Technomancer? I don't know how officialy named tech in this setting (and have no book to consult with) but IMHO it's not 3+4TL, just TL7 with magic inserted and not really nessesary because it can be more or less painless replaced by common technology. I meant setting where computers are useless because there are no tasks they need to solve, setting where hamster camicadze don't guide a missile because missile is not a 3 TL invention and simply doesn't exist (please don't resend me to Chinesse rockets, it's quite different).

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

But why haven't we seen it in action when those guys over there saw it in action when they were TL 3? We live in the same universe under the same laws right?

And you think we know all basic knowledges about our world? "Greece fire" feared all the Medieval during 4 centuries. Modern scientists say that they can create mixture with properties of "greece fire" but can't even imagine how such a mixture could be created in such low tech.

And by the way: it get 400 years to Arabs to steal this tech. And it isn't a divergent TL, only one invention. Same with silk and porcelaine.

[David Johnston2]

[QUOTE=Molokh]

Or they have radically different thinking.

If they _really_ have radically different thinking then obviously we'll never understand their language and that will limit our ability to learn or steal from them.

Or perhaps they approached a problem from a different direction (an aquatic species and a terrestial one, when they meet in space, will have wildly different approaches to the issue of space flight).

No, they won't. Space is space. An aquatic and a terrestrial species may have different perspectives, but there's no reason why the principles their vessels operate under will be fundamentally incomprehensible to each other because the problems and solutions to moving in space are fundamentally the same for both species. Newton and Einstein's principles are not a matter of perspective. They're how things actually work within given parameters.

Or, if we talk about magic, how about a world which has more magical problems than us. If humanity faced, say, magical plagues (which can be only diagnosed by analyzing counter-intuitive, obscure, minor phenomena which we currently consider mere superstition), it would probably be more inclined to explore those issues.

If magic is sufficiently pervasive and efficacious that it can be used as the foundation for entire divergent tech levels there is no way that we could just not notice that it existed.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Manul

Do you mean Technomancer?

No, not Technomancer. Imagine a society where electrical knowledge takes off (basic knowledge of currents and ions appears at TL 2 in societies that have chemistry/alchemy). So by TL 4, you have electromagnetism replacing steam and black powder; explosives are used for mining and steam is used mainly to generate current. Let's also posit a slightly different theory of disease; instead of "humors," let's imagine that theories of "demonets" become a comprehensive theory of micororganisms, but before we have advanced microscope technology. Contagion becomes a big concern, but the idea of convalescing doesn't catch on for a while. We jump forward 500 years...

Infantry use small rail guns as well as powerful magnetic stunners. Cars are replaced by modular rail systems. The first atom bomb was created using energy plasma contained in a magnetic field. Various neurological diseases including MS have been cured through a combination of electrochemistry and magnetic imaging, but the treatment of cardiac failure is in its infancy. Laptops are cool and portable, but they use quantum-based magnetic drives for everything, the laser and consequently the CD having been left behind. Prosthetic limbs are electromagnetic. Demand for gold, copper, and platinum is insatiable. For lower energy applications, microships are produced in staggering quantities. DNA and RNA have been well-mapped, but the mechanism of protein production has lagged, and they have no recombinant DNA technologies; on the other hand, they can assemble simple enzymes and proteins from scratch using tiny generators and raw elements. Intercontinental travel is sometimes achieved by being hurled over the ocean in the grip of a magnetic field while safely contained within a wire-lined capsule. It's 2008, and Tesla's notion of a "force field" is being explored.

[Gizensha]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

But why haven't we seen it in action when those guys over there saw it in action when they were TL 3? We live in the same universe under the same laws right? Why couldn't we see what they saw when they saw it while limited pretty much to the Mark 1 eyeball as a method of perception.

Different physiology (they see mana while we see light), different resources (they're from an area/planet rich in minerals that allow the manipulation of mana while we have none of that sort of mineral), different environment (they're from a high mana region/planet while we're in a low or no mana one.)

[Ramidel]

Let's take a hard look at Starcraft to show how and -why- the technologies are divergent.*

*The real reason, of course, is that it's an RTS and they want to make the races as different as possible for a fun game. Now back to your regularly-scheduled analysis...

Terran technology is evolved along the human path descended from the usual technology.

Zerg "technology" is not going to be adapted by Terrans or 'toss aaaany time soon. The Zerg are a hive mind (either the Overmind or the Cerebrates) who evolve the bodies of their Zerg rather than develop technology. Similarly, actually using the Terrans' technology is beyond them.

Meanwhile, Protoss technology is psionic-based. Terrans, with the possible exception of a very few Ghosts, simply don't have the mojo to use psi blades. The Zerg sure as hell don't have anything below the Cerebrate level with the right kind of psi for it. Now, the Protoss -could- probably work out Terran technology, but as a whole, their society is based on psi-tech and the extremely centralized and specialized Khalai-caste labor used to construct it. On a society-wide level, there are too many barriers to cross-pollination...a big one being "why bother? Our technology is superior to the Terrans'!" (And, generally, it is. You won't see a member of the Templars pick up a Marine's rifle, because -a- Zealot is simply better as well as more honorable.)

Sure, there are some cases that break the rules. Kerrigan and Duran are Zerg who are capable of using Terran and Protoss technology, but they're not, as a rule, evolving it into the Zerg or spending much time on it because they have better things to do. Raynor's Raiders have Terrans and Protoss working together. But as a whole, there's good reasons (at least at gamestart) why the three tech trees are staying highly divergent.

(And if the PCs want to, as a plot, start merging the Terran and Protoss societies...well, that's a campaign for you. PCs have a license and a right to break the setting at will.)