Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Molokh

I noticed that whenever I postulated a situation when two factions had the same total TL, but achieved it through different/divergent paths, somebody would jump in and say that in five years faction A will have all tech from faction B and vice-versa. Now, for some reason nobody says that when two factions with different TLs, but belonging to the same path, meet or even interact for a long time.

What's this big problem with keeping the tech paths distinct? I see lots of examples - Tau, Kroot and Vespid, Terrans and Protoss, the 'races' of EVE Online, Warcraft etc. Yet whenever I mention it for an RPG setting, somebody jump up in protest.

Er, this is because you're comparing apples to oranges.

Apples: Comics and novels written and completely controlled by a single author who can simply decree that tech crossover is difficult or impossible; his characters can't protest at all, while his readers can only protest after the book is a done deal. Movies and television shows where, again, a single person or a small oligarchy -- the director and writer(s), but not the viewers, much less the fictional characters -- can handle technology by fiat. Computer games where the rules for tech are hard-coded in such a way that no mechanism for scientific or engineering research even exists, and where "crafting" and "innovation," such as they are, can't develop anything that isn't already allowed by the code.

Oranges: Tabletop RPGs where the players and GM are collectively telling a story in real time and negotiating what's possible as they go. The characters can, in effect, protest things that the audience -- in this case, the players -- find difficult to accept, like wholly isolated tech paths. Many RPGs actively support invention and research, and thus it's possible for the players to try to combine tech paths even if the GM isn't keen on it. And the social pressure of losing one's players may cause the GM to relent and allow this to work.

As I've said over and over and over again, books, comics, computer games, movies, TV shows, and most other media are craptastic models for tabletop RPGs. Tabletop RPGs have a level of interactivity, flexibility, social interaction, and shared responsibility that all of these other media lack. What works by fiat in those other media will only work in your tabletop RPG if the players agree to go along with it. If they don't, and they protest your decrees, you're usually out of luck. Your options become "change the setting" or "lose your players." Thus, you can't artificially firewall tech trees from one another if that makes your players jump up in protest.

As to why players might protest, that's pretty simple: reality. There are no good examples of divergent tech trees in reality because in reality, tech divergences are transitory foibles that either get absorbed into the big picture and thus cease to be divergent, or are discarded when something from the big picture proves more effective. Players who know this are going to object to entire cultures being religious about their neighbors' cultures having absolutely nothing worth borrowing and combining when combining diverse ideas to get something even better practically defines real-world technological evolution.

You can posit that the reason isn't cultural but actual physical incompatibilities, but reality will still get in the way. The players will object on the grounds that reality has only one set of physical laws. Even if you hammer home that the game isn't reality, fiction will trip you up again: most popular fiction with multiple sets of physical laws features at least one cool character -- the one the players will inevitably view as the best PC archetype -- who somehow gets to benefit from several "incompatible" technologies at once.

[Gizensha]

Originally Posted by DAlillama

But if our TL 11 electronic computers are about as good as their TL 11 biocomputers, why would we bother?

Because of the potential for figuring out how to combine the two techs to get TL11+x computers. (or TLx+11 in the case of the guys with the biotech)

If my civ's TL8, it isn't to advantage to share my technology with your puny TL6 civ... If I'm TL 3+5, however, if I share a couple of those pluses with you guys in exchange for, say, the secrets of the steam engine, I can potentially combine my tech with your tech to get TL4+5 (eventually), while you wind up with TL6+1 in exchange (again, eventually). Which is in both our interests... But mine more than yours since I've just found a civ with a different TL2+4 and exchange some of my tech with theirs to get them to TL2+4+1 and wind up with TL4+5+1 myself.

...Now, if only I could figure out how to interface this squish drive with my USB port...

You're never going to combine TL8 with TL0+8 to get TL8+8, of course... But you might be able to incorporate enough principles to advance your tech level in an area it didn't have anything before.

[pawsplay]

Most importantly, whether you have 5+5 or 9+1, as soon as two neighbors advance to TL 11, you can be sure they will cease to be divergent, although each will have their own areas of specialty. The number of plusses is largely irrelevant; incorporating a robust new field of technology is, in my mind, never more than one + away.

[Manul]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

Most importantly, whether you have 5+5 or 9+1, as soon as two neighbors advance to TL 11, you can be sure they will cease to be divergent, although each will have their own areas of specialty. The number of plusses is largely irrelevant; incorporating a robust new field of technology is, in my mind, never more than one + away.

Think it's not absolutely true just because there's a large tehnological abyss between them. I think nobody here can more or less closely imagine for example 3+5 magical TL.

And if tomorrow humanity will face mage race it would be hard to cease diverging. If we even presume that humans actually can make magical items it will take up years to learn theirs magical principals and they will understand our applied math, physics, chemistry, biology and others for comparable periods of time. All this time both cultures will avoid conflicts and have willing to assist each other. We must presume that there are no conflicts out of cultural differences, paranoia of military forces and such factors. IMHO this is real in single technological aspects and nearly impossible in general.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Manul

Think it's not absolutely true just because there's a large tehnological abyss between them. I think nobody here can more or less closely imagine for example 3+5 magical TL.

Mostly because it's something that just plain doesn't exist. If "magic" existed in such a form that it was perceptible at TL 3, then it's pretty implausible that we would make no use of it unless, once again they had some kind of resource that we do not such as mana, or people with magic aptitude.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Manul

Think it's not absolutely true just because there's a large tehnological abyss between them.

I'm not so sure, largely because of the problem of choice of zero. Let's start with 3 TL3 civilizations. Civilization A invents high sorcery and advances 3 TLs, but since this is our chosen zero, lets call this TL6. Civlilization B doesn't invent sorcery, but discovers gunpowder instead, advancing 3 TLs to TL 3+3. Civilization C doesn't discover either of those, but invents printing, which B missed too because its ideographic script would require thousands of types, and advances 3 (different for the lack of personal firearms) TLs to TL3+3. Civilizations B and C meet. By the logic as upthread, they are too divergent to exchange technlogies easily - even though we know for a certainty this combination (3 TLs of advance over TL3 including gunpowder and printing) involves no fundamental incompatibilities, and can be "combined" in a generation - from example of developing nations that jumped from TL3 to 6 in about that time when exposed to these (in our model two separate) new tech paths.

And once they do combine, what the TL of the B-C League anyway? Well given our choice of zero, it's still divergant, and it's still achieving about the same things as A, so it's still TL 3+3, just like before, despite the possibly major changes caused by the tech transfer. By the same logic, should A acquire the technology of the B-C league, well it's new TL has similar capabilities as before, so its now TL 3+3 too, um except it still has its original stuff, so 6+0, where this is not the same as TL6, or, um, well it *can* do some stuff it couldn't before, so maybe 6+1, except it's a TL6+1 with net capabilities distinctly inferior to the TL7 it's 3 decade time advanced alternate world version over there has, or....

Numerical TLs, no matter how you implement them, simply don't mean a lot, as should be obvious from their vagueness even for historical Earth. Which is why any setting that matters ends up describing the available technlogy in quite a few paragraphs rather than a number or two. Trying to decide on the basis of a number or two to what extent divergent technologies can combine and what difference it would make is not going to work well.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'm not so sure, largely because of the problem of choice of zero. Let's start with 3 TL3 civilizations. Civilization A invents high sorcery and advances 3 TLs, but since this is our chosen zero, lets call this TL6. Civlilization B doesn't invent sorcery, but discovers gunpowder instead, advancing 3 TLs to TL 3+3. Civilization C doesn't discover either of those, but invents printing, which B missed too because its ideographic script would require thousands of types, and advances 3 (different for the lack of personal firearms) TLs to TL3+3. Civilizations B and C meet. By the logic as upthread, they are too divergent to exchange technlogies easily - even though we know for a certainty this combination (3 TLs of advance over TL3 including gunpowder and printing) involves no fundamental incompatibilities, and can be "combined" in a generation - from example of developing nations that jumped from TL3 to 6 in about that time when exposed to these (in our model two separate) new tech paths.

And once they do combine, what the TL of the B-C League anyway? Well given our choice of zero, it's still divergant, and it's still achieving about the same things as A, so it's still TL 3+3, just like before, despite the possibly major changes caused by the tech transfer. By the same logic, should A acquire the technology of the B-C league, well it's new TL has similar capabilities as before, so its now TL 3+3 too, um except it still has its original stuff, so 6+0, where this is not the same as TL6, or, um, well it *can* do some stuff it couldn't before, so maybe 6+1, except it's a TL6+1 with net capabilities distinctly inferior to the TL7 it's 3 decade time advanced alternate world version over there has, or....

That's not a very fair set of examples. You're describing civilizations with split TLs (completely fair topic on their own, but somewhat different from divergent TLs). Divergent TLs are based on wildly different approaches to tech. E.g.: Zerg/Protoss/Terran trio; some of the examples from Waagh 40K; West of Eden lizard race (probably one of the best examples, and one rather distant from military secrets, thankfully).

[Manul]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Mostly because it's something that just plain doesn't exist. If "magic" existed in such a form that it was perceptible at TL 3, then it's pretty implausible that we would make no use of it unless, once again they had some kind of resource that we do not such as mana, or people with magic aptitude.

Right in point, David Johnson2. And if tomorrow race of magic-related "tech"-level will appear from nowhere we will not be ready for it even if theirs knowledge will be physically suitable for our race. Just because it's something that doesn't exist in our civilization and we *think* it dosn't exist at all.

Originally Posted by malloyd

Numerical TLs, no matter how you implement them, simply don't mean a lot, as should be obvious from their vagueness even for historical Earth. Which is why any setting that matters ends up describing the available technlogy in quite a few paragraphs rather than a number or two. Trying to decide on the basis of a number or two to what extent divergent technologies can combine and what difference it would make is not going to work well.

My apologies. I really begin to draw a conclusion without thinking about what exactly is TL. Well, now I'll try to use more accurate definitions: in my previous post I assumed that different TL is some set of knowledge, skills and items inventing which relies on principes that are different from our civilization's (such as magic and technology) and some missing inventions (such as B-C pair) are issues of existing TL, not alternative ones. I have no answer how to count TL of an A-B-C union.

After all it doesn't resolve problems that A civilization will ocure during "technological" (I'm not sure this is a proper word but have no more accurate one) fusion with B-C union.

[David Johnston2]

[QUOTE=Manul]

Right in point, David Johnson2. And if tomorrow race of magic-related "tech"-level will appear from nowhere we will not be ready for it even if theirs knowledge will be physically suitable for our race. Just because it's something that doesn't exist in our civilization and we *think* it dosn't exist at all.

And why do we think that?

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Manul

Think it's not absolutely true just because there's a large tehnological abyss between them. I think nobody here can more or less closely imagine for example 3+5 magical TL.

But we can certainly imagine 3+4, which was my point, more or less.