How to protect casters?

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In pure dungeon fantasy -- and let's face it, that's where the "squishy caster/meat-shield tank" notion comes from -- it's de rigueur for casters to have "pets." I can't imagine a GM not letting casters have summonables (or why would I have approved that Dungeon Fantasy: Allies proposal?). Non-casters, however, really shouldn't be lugging around Allies at all.

heh... you're going to cause half the board to lurch out of their seats with that comment.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In pure dungeon fantasy -- and let's face it, that's where the "squishy caster/meat-shield tank" notion comes from -- it's de rigueur for casters to have "pets." I can't imagine a GM not letting casters have summonables (or why would I have approved that Dungeon Fantasy: Allies proposal?). Non-casters, however, really shouldn't be lugging around Allies at all.

IT MUST BE MINE!

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In pure dungeon fantasy -- and let's face it, that's where the "squishy caster/meat-shield tank" notion comes from -- it's de rigueur for casters to have "pets." I can't imagine a GM not letting casters have summonables (or why would I have approved that Dungeon Fantasy: Allies proposal?). Non-casters, however, really shouldn't be lugging around Allies at all.

I want to quibble with this for two reasons:

1) GURPS DF is already moving more and more into the realms of "if you're not a spell caster, you can't have nice stuff." It's mitigated by the fact that Weapon Masters and ultra high Strength Barbarians do so much damage in physical combat, but it's still a fact that that a delving band pretty much has to have a Cleric. Other roles are optional, but no one is going to survive a delve and make a profit by using healing potions for every combat.

2) Knights have Leadership, but they can't have troopers to command? The Rogue can't have a couple of apprentices from the Thieves' Guild? The Barbarian or Scout can't have a pet? Come on, sir, that's unworthy of you.

[NightHawk]

Ok reading through it is all about protecting the squishy weak mage, I say if he is stupid enough to put himsel directly into battle and get close to a blade he should save the other allies butt's by lodging the sword in his stomach to hold it in place so they can attack!!!

Now if it was an ambush better he is under your foot then in your way!! lol

Now guys seriously I have played spell casting characters most of my gaming career and the first thing you learn is how to hide, run or just hang back. There shouldn't be a discussion about them getting in the way and I am sorry when i think old man un-armoured hanging around a bunch of bulked up umber hulks the first thing that comes to my mind is an arrow right through that spell casting bastards head! You know how much a well placed lightning bolt hurts!

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

1) GURPS DF is already moving more and more into the realms of "if you're not a spell caster, you can't have nice stuff."

Mimicking the source ;)

2) Knights have Leadership, but they can't have troopers to command? The Rogue can't have a couple of apprentices from the Thieves' Guild? The Barbarian or Scout can't have a pet?

That's what hirelings are for <k/2>

I think the general idea is that only the squishies need Allies (permanent or summonable) to keep the riff-raff off of 'em. The Thief is more about stealth, which is harder to maintain when you have 'extras' following you around. JMO

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

1) GURPS DF is already moving more and more into the realms of "if you're not a spell caster, you can't have nice stuff." It's mitigated by the fact that Weapon Masters and ultra high Strength Barbarians do so much damage in physical combat, but it's still a fact that that a delving band pretty much has to have a Cleric. Other roles are optional, but no one is going to survive a delve and make a profit by using healing potions for every combat.

Herb Lore will get you a long way with the Healing potions. So would being a Martial Artist and having Regeneration (Chi, -10%). But yes, a dedicated healer is a damn good idea at least until you can pick up a Wand of Major Healing or some such.

I don't have much of a problem with requiring a serious healer type, though. I'm old-fashioned that way I guess.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

2) Knights have Leadership, but they can't have troopers to command? The Rogue can't have a couple of apprentices from the Thieves' Guild? The Barbarian or Scout can't have a pet? Come on, sir, that's unworthy of you.

However this part definitely bothers me. All kinds of characters can justify having sidekicks. It's just that most of them can't justify having mindless magical sidekicks (unless they find one as treasure, like the Figurines from earlier D&D editions).

Martial Artists could have apprentices, following their master. So could Wizards, really. Scouts can have bands of merry men (cough), clerics and druids can have acolytes. Artificers can have assistants or apprentices, Scholars can be dragging along students for valuable field experience.

And of course anyone could hire mercenaries without them having to be allies ;)

There really do seem to be two types of dungeon crawl games, though. One where you have a lot of hirelings, and Leadership feats or the equivalent floating around, and those tend to lead in the direction of building a fortress and ruling the countryside with an iron fist. The other is where only certain classes bother with sidekicks at all, and they tend to be the "holy mount/familiar creature/extension of my class features" types of side kicks.

Which kind of game you end up in depends entirely on the GM and players in that game. Even when higher-level Barbarians used to be able to call up barbarian hordes as a class feature, I've been in a lot of games where people politely ignored that.

It's funny, but even CRPGs seem to fall into these divisions. Diablo is in the second type, and Kromm has admitted that he likes that game a LOT and was influenced by it when working on DF ;) Dungeon Siege was in the first type, and although you could just replace all the assisting characters with Mules for carrying loot, the game sort of assumed you'd pick up sidekicks.

[Kaldrin]

I more or less understood that Kromm was referring to mages getting subservient/drone-ish type creatures to control. Of course others can find allies in other situations.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

I more or less understood that Kromm was referring to mages getting subservient/drone-ish type creatures to control. Of course others can find allies in other situations.

You understood correctly. I was speaking of "pets" and "summonables." I don't think those make sense for individuals who lack supernatural powers.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Taunt (+180%/-20%): Affliction 1 (Malediction, +150%; Based on Will, +20%; Disadvantage, Obsession: Kill the Wielder of this Power--SC6, +10%; Costs Fatigue 1, -5%; Requires Speech, -10%; Requires Intimidation Roll, -5%) [23].
Notes: You are surrounded with red light as you yell taunts at one particular enemy. With a successful Intimidation roll, you two lock Wills. If you succeed in a Quick Contest you fill him with the Obsession to kill you rather than some other target. 23 points.

Why malediction and not sense based?

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Kromm

You understood correctly. I was speaking of "pets" and "summonables." I don't think those make sense for individuals who lack supernatural powers.

Why couldn't a mundane warrior, earn the respect of a god somewhere who gave him a small number of minor warrior demigods as his summable servants?

Maybe add in a pendant used in the summoning adding in a can be stolen limitation.

A character does not need to have supernatural powers to have gotten supernatural effects.