old theme - What exactly is default?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Molokh

And what the hell would Offroading be as a separate skill? That's just contrary to how GURPS works. Do we have Bad Weather Piloting skill now too?

Offroading can be considered a different sub-skill, you have landscape issues, but you don't have to pay attention to traffic around you.
If you think of Driving like a combat skill, which I do, then Offroading would be like a sport skill or an art skill.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Offroading can be considered a different sub-skill, you have landscape issues, but you don't have to pay attention to traffic around you.
If you think of Driving like a combat skill, which I do, then Offroading would be like a sport skill or an art skill.

Doesn't make sense. So now we use two different Piloting skills: one for takeoff and landing in the airport with other planes around, and a different one for handling rough weather in open air, too?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

The problem is that you go from a -5 to a -1 with a single point in the skill, without anything in between. I'm suggesting a greater gradation.

Numbering:

-7 (Saw driving in culture, default and unfamiliarity penalty.)
-5 (Default with driving lessons to remove unfamiliarity penalty.)
-4 (Default with +1 TDM for his own vehicle after a few hours.)
-3 (Default with +2 TDM for his own vehicle after a few days.)
-2 (Default with +3 TDM for his own vehicle after a few weeks.)
-1 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle after a few months.)
-0 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM when driving becomes routine.)
+1 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM for driving a known route, +1 TDM for routine driving.)
+2 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM for known route, +2 TDM for months of routine driving conditions.)
+3 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM for routine route, +3 TDM for a couple of years of routine driving conditions.)
+4 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +2 TDM for familiar route, +3 TDM for a couple of years of routine driving conditions.)
+5 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +2 TDM for familiar route, +4 TDM for a few years of routine driving conditions.)

Mix and match, add +4 for anyone with an actual [1] in Driving Skill.

Good heavens! Elaborate enough for you?
{Edit: BTW, I see no problem with going from "-5 to -1" when you earn as skill. That's what having a skill is FOR.}

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Doesn't make sense. So now we use two different Piloting skills: one for takeoff and landing in the airport with other planes around, and a different one for handling rough weather in open air, too?

Those aren't comparable.
Offroading is different from normal driving just as drag racing is different, race car driving is different, etc., either specializations or techniques can apply.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Doesn't make sense. So now we use two different Piloting skills: one for takeoff and landing in the airport with other planes around, and a different one for handling rough weather in open air, too?

It certainly makes sense to have some separate handling of "having to deal with rules and other people in addition to controlling the vehicle" vs "just controlling the vehicle", but rather than using a completely separate skill, I'd apply something like a -2 to -4 unfamiliarity penalty for operating in a situation where local custom, operational rules, etc., apply and the operator is unfamiliar with those rules (or has some mental disadvantage that create the effect of an "incompetence" in dealing with them.)

[Huyderman]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

The problem is that you go from a -5 to a -1 with a single point in the skill, without anything in between. I'm suggesting a greater gradation.

IMHO, it's better to bridge the gap with "fractional points"; 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 each reducing the default penalty with one. Of course this is fiddly, and I only use it for characters studing skills, and not actually putting points in.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Good heavens! Elaborate enough for you?

Sure, but that's only because I'm writing it down for you guys, normally when I run I do it by feel so that players feel the differences.

I remember a memorable scene difference between the ease of when Jenny drove her old automatic Cadillac up to the PCs' vacation spot in the mountains of New Hampshire, and the later difficulty she had when she was trying to start and maneuver around her friend Catarina's Jaguar with a manual transmission which she's never driven, under combat conditions with ghouls on motorcycles bearing down on her at near 100 mph speeds.

Even though Jenny had seen Catarina do stunt driving in the Jag, and been in the Jag at massive speeds while Catarina was driving, Jenny had no actual driving skill, had never driven a stick, and had never driven this particular Jag, not to mention that those ghouls were seconds away at the speed they're traveling, and they have bats and chains out and had already sent her buddy Heinrich flying off the road when he tried to stop them on his bike...

The roleplaying I got from Jenny's player at that point, with all the TDMs under consideration, was perfect and could have been part of an action climax in any movie or book.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Those aren't comparable.
Offroading is different from normal driving just as drag racing is different, race car driving is different, etc., either specializations or techniques can apply.

Sure they are. Both are cases of inventing an extra skill when GURPS already has a skill covering both aspects of the same activity - it's just that one part of the activity is IQ-based while the other is DX-based.

[Stupid Jedi]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Offroading can be considered a different sub-skill, you have landscape issues, but you don't have to pay attention to traffic around you.
If you think of Driving like a combat skill, which I do, then Offroading would be like a sport skill or an art skill.

Yes, but all of his off-road driving has improved his ability to control a vehicle, period. Put him on icy roads, and he can handle the vehicle no problem. Heavy traffic, and he can zip in and out with ease. He has done some amateur racing, and he is very good at it.

By making off-roading and racing techniques, they do not improve overall Driving skill. This is not how I use GURPS skills. Using your method, you never have to put points in any skill:

-7 (Saw skill used in culture, default and unfamiliarity penalty.)
-5 (Default with lessons to remove unfamiliarity penalty.)
-4 (Default with +1 TDM for limited skill use after a few hours.)
-3 (Default with +2 TDM for limited skill use after a few days.)
-2 (Default with +3 TDM for limited skill use after a few weeks.)
-1 (Default with +4 TDM for limited skill use after a few months.)
-0 (Default with +4 TDM for limited skill use, and +1 TDM in routine conditions.)
+1 (Default with +4 TDM for limited skill use, and +1 TDM for a familiar skill application, +1 TDM for routine conditions.)
+2 (Default with +4 TDM for limited skill use, and +1 TDM for a familiar skill application, +2 TDM for months of routine conditions.)
+3 (Default with +4 TDM for limited skill use, and +1 TDM for familiar skill application, +3 TDM for a couple of years of routine conditions.)
+4 (Default with +4 TDM for limited skill use, and +2 TDM for familiar skill application, +3 TDM for a couple of years of routine conditions.)
+5 (Default with +4 TDM for limited skill use, and +2 TDM for familiar skill appplication, +4 TDM for a few years of routine conditions.)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

The problem is that you go from a -5 to a -1 with a single point in the skill, without anything in between. I'm suggesting a greater gradation.

Numbering:

-7 (Saw driving in culture, default and unfamiliarity penalty.)
-5 (Default with driving lessons to remove unfamiliarity penalty.)
-4 (Default with +1 TDM for his own vehicle after a few hours.)
-3 (Default with +2 TDM for his own vehicle after a few days.)
-2 (Default with +3 TDM for his own vehicle after a few weeks.)
-1 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle after a few months.)
-0 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM when driving becomes routine.)
+1 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM for driving a known route, +1 TDM for routine driving.)
+2 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM for known route, +2 TDM for months of routine driving conditions.)
+3 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM for routine route, +3 TDM for a couple of years of routine driving conditions.)
+4 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +2 TDM for familiar route, +3 TDM for a couple of years of routine driving conditions.)
+5 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +2 TDM for familiar route, +4 TDM for a few years of routine driving conditions.)

Mix and match, add +4 for anyone with an actual [1] in Driving Skill.

Just curious: do you give the +4 'for his own vehicle' and '+4 for a few years of routine' to mecha pilots, cybershell cowboys, and just plain acrobats, if they do that sort of stuff for years?