old theme - What exactly is default?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Consider the likely selection bias. You notice those people which do something unexpected or which requires you to react. You don't, generally, notice those who just drive on their way without any trouble.

And, aside from that, it's perfectly possible for people with stats of 10 and at least one point in a skill to do something dumb. All soldiers on a modern battlefield are expected to have points in a plenty of skills, but that doesn't mean that they're immune from mistakes.

Erring is pretty human and not an indicator that people don't have a skill in GURPS terms. Besides, your way of giving experienced drivers a free TDM of +4 that others don't get yields the exact same odds of success as giving them a point of Driving. The only thing that changes is that they aren't charged for the privilege.

I don't think that's the issue, a car is a type of equipment which will receive different TDMs based on both its quality, style and your own familiarity with it, as well as how you're using it.

Consider a car with an automatic transmission and one with a manual transmission, a car with power steering and one without, one with anti-lock brakes and one without, etc., etc., all those additional equipment gizmos make driving easier, some have trade offs, but each one adds a TDM in some way or other.

I've sat in trucks with old worn out manual transmissions which were a pain to get into gear, I've driven cars with worn gear knobs which had Reverse on the upper left next to 1st, cars with odds down and evens up, cars with button shifters and Reverse occupying the same spot as 1st, cars with trick starters, etc., etc., equipment and familiarity with it has to make a huge difference.

[Gizensha]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I don't think that's the issue, a car is a type of equipment which will receive different TDMs based on both its quality, style and your own familiarity with it, as well as how you're using it.

Consider a car with an automatic transmission and one with a manual transmission, a car with power steering and one without, one with anti-lock brakes and one without, etc., etc., all those additional equipment gizmos make driving easier, some have trade offs, but each one adds a TDM in some way or other.

I've sat in trucks with old worn out manual transmissions which were a pain to get into gear, I've driven cars with worn gear knobs which had Reverse on the upper left next to 1st, cars with odds down and evens up, cars with button shifters and Reverse occupying the same spot as 1st, cars with trick starters, etc., etc., equipment and familiarity with it has to make a huge difference.

Said difference is measured with equipment bonuses and familiarity penalties, not TDM.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I've sat in trucks with old worn out manual transmissions which were a pain to get into gear, I've driven cars with worn gear knobs which had Reverse on the upper left next to 1st, cars with odds down and evens up, cars with button shifters and Reverse occupying the same spot as 1st, cars with trick starters, etc., etc.

Miraculous that you survived. ;)

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I don't think that's the issue, a car is a type of equipment which will receive different TDMs based on both its quality, style and your own familiarity with it, as well as how you're using it.

GURPS familiarity mods are distinct from TDMs, applying TDMs for familiarity on top of familiarity penalties double counts familiarity.

Consider a car with an automatic transmission and one with a manual transmission, a car with power steering and one without, one with anti-lock brakes and one without, etc., etc., all those additional equipment gizmos make driving easier, some have trade offs, but each one adds a TDM in some way or other.

Some would add TDMs in certain situations, though the biggest effect of many of these differences would be to apply familiarity penalties for unfamiliar users (and, indeed, the difference between automatic and manual transmission is a standard example of a familiarity divide).

I've sat in trucks with old worn out manual transmissions which were a pain to get into gear, I've driven cars with worn gear knobs which had Reverse on the upper left next to 1st, cars with odds down and evens up, cars with button shifters and Reverse occupying the same spot as 1st, cars with trick starters, etc., etc., equipment and familiarity with it has to make a huge difference.

Which is why GURPS has familiarities for skills that relate to equipment operation. Using TDMs on top of them to serve the same purpose is redundant.

[Fwibos]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Two, failed driving rolls certainly don't lead to accidents or tickets, any more than a failed Broadsword roll results in stabbing yourself, a failed Writing roll results in accidentally insulting your target audience, or a failed Photography roll results in taking photographs of the inside of the lenscap (or breaking the camera). Disasters, like car accidents, should be reserved for critical failures, or at the very least for long strings of regular failures.

Yes, didn't third ed give any critical failure a second roll, and only if that failed did something bad happen?

Originally Posted by Bruno

I've worked tech support. The vast majority of people don't have a point in Computer Operation, have no desire to have a point in Computer Operation, and actively resist your every effort to train them until they have a point in Computer Operation. I've given lessons to people who go deliberately, actively, and maliciously deaf when you try to explain anything to them. They just want their emails and their funny cat pictures and youtube videos, and the rest of it can go hang.

OMG, I am so yoinking this for a sig.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Some would add TDMs in certain situations, though the biggest effect of many of these differences would be to apply familiarity penalties for unfamiliar users (and, indeed, the difference between automatic and manual transmission is a standard example of a familiarity divide).

I strongly disagree.
I personally prefer a manual to an automatic transmission due to the better control and improved fuel mileage I get from a manual, but no one can argue that driving an automatic isn't simpler than driving a manual, period.
I've known many normal everyday drivers who can't drive a manual but drive automatics on a daily basis. (Again I'd stat them as driving off of default skill.)

It's a fact that it's simply easier to drive an automatic, that means either a permanent equipment bonus, or a situational TDM needs to be applied to anyone driving an automatic, with much steeper unfamiliarity penalties for automatic drivers who haven't driven manuals vs. manual drivers who can easily switch to driving automatics.

[Randover]

This seems simple - automatic means "better equipment". Its much like modern cookers and campfires. Modern cooker "fuel" itself and thus is automatic. So I would give automatic trasission +1 for equipment.

[Dwarfolo]

IMHO it depends on the task. There are many dangerous situation where an automatic trasmission would actually deserve a penality instead of a bonus.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Randover

This seems simple - automatic means "better equipment". Its much like modern cookers and campfires. Modern cooker "fuel" itself and thus is automatic. So I would give automatic transmission +1 for equipment.

Sure, but it's not just that simple, the fact that some people aren't capable of driving a manual and are comfortable driving an automatic, even after becoming fully familiarized with a manual vehicle, is much more than a simple issue of familiarity.

I suppose we could make everyone have to buy off the quirk, Incompetence Manuals -4, but that seems a bit silly and backwards to me.

Not to mention that Manuals give you a bonus in many different situations if you're competent and know how to properly shift to advantage.

[DouglasCole]

The manual transmission provides more control, in acceleration and deceleration. You can use the engine rather than the brakes for dealing with terrain (ice, rain), for example.

The automatic is probably "better" for easy operation. Go. Stop. So in the cases where you don't have to make a crisis roll, it's easier...but you don't have to roll in those cases. Automatics are probably LESS susceptible to familiarity as well.

Manuals often require you to get used to the depth and engagement profile of the clutch, which changes in my experience from one vehicle (even of same make/model) to another. You also need to know better where the optimium acceleration profile of the car is; my WRX doesn't "turn on" unless I'm above 3000rpm (ideally 3400rpm), but if I drive at less than 3000rpm (and shift at 2500rpm) I can extend my range per tank by 30%.