Advantages to improve Extra Effort?

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

I'm building an NPC who is not very impressive in the physical sense most of the time, but can push herself to the limit when there's a real need. I know, NPCs shouldn't get that much detail, but I think later me or some player might want to buy a similar ability. The game is a cinematic ultra-tech action with high bio/nanotech, with mods vaguely inspired by Deus Ex; it is not planned as a long campaign, but who knows.

I was wondering about what Advantages might help with improving Extra Effort in various ways. Here are some ideas:

Buy Will limited to extra effort only. Accessibility rules would probably dictate about -35%, but given that Will is useful for lots of stuff, I'm wondering if it might be as low as -80% (remember, will costs 5/level while many Will-based skills are 4/level).

Another idea is to build the Extra Effort Technique, based on Will. I'm also wondering if it would be legal to float this Technique onto Will-based rolls against appropriate Skills (but with this NPC it wouldn't be very useful anyway).

I'm wondering about Advantages (Perks?) that would allow doing the following:

• Spend HP instead of FP to fuel Extra Effort when it is preferable.
• Ignore the penalty to the Will roll for having less than full FP (as on P160).
• Use Godlike Extra Effort (as described on P161)
• Use Trading Fatigue for Skill for stuff like contests of ST/Judo/etc. (also P161).
• Basing the speed/lift/power bonus on Margin of Success of an unmodified roll, not on taking a penalty before rolling.
• Make her ER fuel mundane extra effort, not just boost 'powers'.

I have no idea how to price them.

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

[Stupid Jedi]

I use an advantage called Heroic Effect for 2 point per level that adds to Will when rolling for extra effort. I priced it the same as Fearlessness, since it is also an aspect of Will (that would make it a -60% limitation). I figured that was reasonable. Since Fearlessness isn't a Technique, I didn't think this advantage should be either, since it is very similar.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Stupid Jedi

I use an advantage called Heroic Effect for 2 point per level that adds to Will when rolling for extra effort. I priced it the same as Fearlessness, since it is also an aspect of Will (that would make it a -60% limitation). I figured that was reasonable. Since Fearlessness isn't a Technique, I didn't think this advantage should be either, since it is very similar.

Seems logical, even though it looks like a rather small chunk of the attribute.

What about other effects mentioned? I don't think most of them fit as Perks . . .

[vitruvian]

Buy Will limited to extra effort only. Accessibility rules would probably dictate about -35%, but given that Will is useful for lots of stuff, I'm wondering if it might be as low as -80% (remember, will costs 5/level while many Will-based skills are 4/level).

I'd probably allow no more than -40%, myself, simply because this is the main reason you're taking the extra Will - and just +10 Will [30] could have major implications for what you can do with a Will-based Extra Effort lifting roll, for one example. Heck, if your base Will without limitations was high enough, I might only allow -20%, if that.

I'm wondering about Advantages (Perks?) that would allow doing the following:
Spend HP instead of FP to fuel Extra Effort when it is preferable.

I might allow this as a Perk, since it is quite dangerous to the character and is much simpler than building a construct of an FP bonus with Temporary Disadvantage (Reduced HP). Any arguments for it being worth more, and how much?

Ignore the penalty to the Will roll for having less than full FP (as on P160).

Not sure if that's Perk level or more.

Use Godlike Extra Effort (as described on P161)

If other folks can't? It's not as open ended as Ultrapower, so I'd go with 10 points as the cost.

Use Trading Fatigue for Skill for stuff like contests of ST/Judo/etc. (also P161).

Interesting - that also seems like about a 10 pointer. Of course, it might be better to have a series of specific ability boosts that Cost FP; all but the most expensive could be AAs of each other. ST +2, DX +1, Basic Speed +1, etc.

Basing the speed/lift/power bonus on Margin of Success of an unmodified roll, not on taking a penalty before rolling.

Not absolutely sure of the utility of this.

Make her ER fuel mundane extra effort, not just boost 'powers'.

Well, it depends. If you define the ER as going towards something like the Biological or Chi source, I'd probably allow it to boost 'normal' Extra Effort that's thematically related as well. Or, one could buy ER without a power source, that's intended *only* to help out with Extra Effort without raising your total FP and therefore your FP/3 point, etc.

This sort of ER (or just a load of extra FP, if you don't care as much about the fine details) is probably even more important than the Will boost, since so many combat options for Extra Effort don't even have a roll involved. You just expend the FP for the one turn of combat prowess...

Some kind of heavily limited FP Regeneration might also be worth looking at, as well.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Buy Will limited to extra effort only. Accessibility rules would probably dictate about -35%, but given that Will is useful for lots of stuff, I'm wondering if it might be as low as -80% (remember, will costs 5/level while many Will-based skills are 4/level).

I'd call it 1/level for simplicity. Extra Effort is a very small subset of Will.

[*]Spend HP instead of FP to fuel Extra Effort when it is preferable.

Perk. I've used this in my custom V:TM conversion.

[*]Ignore the penalty to the Will roll for having less than full FP (as on P160).

Perk, again.

[*]Use Godlike Extra Effort (as described on P161)

Unusual Background, in the 5 to 10 point range, IMO.

[*]Use Trading Fatigue for Skill for stuff like contests of ST/Judo/etc. (also P161).

Hrm... compared to Mighty Blows, Feverish Defense, etc., this seems pretty underpowered, so I'd say Perk again.

[*]Basing the speed/lift/power bonus on Margin of Success of an unmodified roll, not on taking a penalty before rolling.

Wait - why would you want to do this? That's changing a rule more than it's adding a capability. I wouldn't price this as a trait.

[*]Make her ER fuel mundane extra effort, not just boost 'powers'.

+20% to the cost of the ER, much as for the Extended enhancements for various advantages.

[vicky_molokh]

Thanks to those who answered!

Things I'm still not sure about:

Improving Will for EE only: I'm choosing between RPK's and SJ's numbers. I don't like vitruvian's, especially -20%, because it discourages players from buying EE Will - they're much better off buying one or two levels less of 'full' Will. RPK's point seems very true - EE is normally only rarely used; but SJ's point towards Fearlessness/Fearfulness is very good too, as F/F is a good precedent of a sorta-sub-attribute of Will.

Regarding Godlike Extra Effort. I'm not sure I really want all what GEE gives. Specifically: while I don't want the final bonus to be limited to +100%, I want to limit the maximum bonus per 1 FP to +100% (as described in the RAW); I want to set a limit on the amount of FP spent per roll. I wonder if just saying "1FP/cp, up to 10CP, which means unlimited FP" is okay? Where does the +100%/FP come into the equation? (I'm also thinking of building the NPC with a limit of 5-6FP/effort - it looks pretty impressive, like during the tank scene in GitS, but not too much to be silly.)

Regarding the traits: does anybody have good generic names for them? As in, suitable for both fantasy blessings and ultratech modifications? I think the EE-only Will called 'heroic effort' sounds a bit weird in UT. I'm calling the HP-for-FP perk 'Overdrive Booster' (or maybe 'Emergency Booster Overdrive Mode'), as nothing better comes to mind. (Does it sound too animéish?)
I have absolutely no ideas regarding Trading FP for Skill and Reduced FP doesn't penalize Extra Effort.

Regarding the ER: well, the weird thing is that it doesn't power Advantages at all. I mean, sure, she has Super Jump, but she's boosting her basic running/jumping/climbing/digging/throwing/etc. numbers, not specific Advantages. Would that come out as -0%? (And no, it's not just FP - I want to take Special Recharge - either Deus-style biobatteries, or some weird energy fluid infusions.)

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Regarding Godlike Extra Effort. I'm not sure I really want all what GEE gives. Specifically: while I don't want the final bonus to be limited to +100%, I want to limit the maximum bonus per 1 FP to +100% (as described in the RAW); I want to set a limit on the amount of FP spent per roll. I wonder if just saying "1FP/cp, up to 10CP, which means unlimited FP" is okay? Where does the +100%/FP come into the equation? (I'm also thinking of building the NPC with a limit of 5-6FP/effort - it looks pretty impressive, like during the tank scene in GitS, but not too much to be silly.)

There's no "equation", really - this is an art, not a science. I think the best way to phrase what you're trying to do is:

Improved Extra Effort (1 point/level): Each level allows you to spend one additional FP for extra effort (e.g., with IEE 4, you could spend up to 5 FP). Multiply the effects of successful extra effort (i.e., the 5% improvement) by the FP spent, up to a maximum of 100% per FP spent. At IEE 10, you can spend as many FP as you wish.

Regarding the traits: does anybody have good generic names for them? As in, suitable for both fantasy blessings and ultratech modifications? I think the EE-only Will called 'heroic effort' sounds a bit weird in UT. I'm calling the HP-for-FP perk 'Overdrive Booster' (or maybe 'Emergency Booster Overdrive Mode'), as nothing better comes to mind. (Does it sound too animéish?)
I have absolutely no ideas regarding Trading FP for Skill and Reduced FP doesn't penalize Extra Effort.

Spend HP instead of FP: Emergency Reserves
Ignore penalty for low FP: Indefatigable
Trading FP for skill/ST: Potential Power

Regarding the ER: well, the weird thing is that it doesn't power Advantages at all. I mean, sure, she has Super Jump, but she's boosting her basic running/jumping/climbing/digging/throwing/etc. numbers, not specific Advantages. Would that come out as -0%? (And no, it's not just FP - I want to take Special Recharge - either Deus-style biobatteries, or some weird energy fluid infusions.)

That's normal ER, then. The "power" Is "normal human extra effort". Sean said quite a while back that that was fine and legal.

[the_matrix_walker]

Sorry for the thread necromancy... but this is something I am thinking of using for a character, and I was wondering...

Originally Posted by PK

I'd call it 1/level for simplicity. Extra Effort is a very small subset of Will.

Could this be adapted to include Stunts?

Perhaps "Will for Stunts only" should be separately purchased, but equal in price? or perhaps "Extra Effort for Powers and Stunts" still a small enough subset of Will to warrant the same cost?

And do you still think "Godlike Extra Effort" is an...

Originally Posted by PK

Unusual Background, in the 5 to 10 point range, IMO.

Or should it just be an "Extra Option" Perk if that switch isn't already on in a 4 color Supers game? (But maybe that's just a GM call...)

[Flyndaran]

We have Emergencies Only, and Unsupported. The latter requires a Ht roll with failure resulting in HP damage, and a critical failure crippling. With (very) rapid healing and good Health, the No Nuisance Perk should remove that danger.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

We have Emergencies Only, and Unsupported. The latter requires a Ht roll with failure resulting in HP damage, and a critical failure crippling. With (very) rapid healing and good Health, the No Nuisance Perk should remove that danger.

Thanks for the input, but I was specifically looking to expand on PK's 1 point Extra Effort Will.

I don't think I'd allow Unsupported in conjunction with No Nuisance rolls... if that were allowed, it would only be relevant if HT was somehow penalized.