Martial Arts: Celtic, Roman, Viking Swords

[Anders]

Yep. Remember that GURPS is aimed at gamers in general - not at gamers with a massive internal database concerning various swords used at various times under various names. There are many terms in GURPS that are used in an imprecise, everyday sense of the word*. "Broadsword" makes sense to most people that buy and play GURPS. The rest of you just have to grit your teeth once in a while.

*For instance, the "Chronic Depression" listed in the Basic Set actually refers to what a psychiatrist would call "Recurring Major Depression with Suicidal Ideation". GURPS is not a psychiatry textbook, and "Chronic Depression" conveys the gist of what the authors mean. If SJG ever decides to write GURPS Psychiatry, I'll notify them.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

"Broadsword" makes sense to most people that buy and play GURPS. The rest of you just have to grit your teeth once in a while.

I've reached the point that if any of my players kick up a fuss about this I will start referring to them as "Smaller sword", "Medium sword", "Bigger sword", and "Huge Sword". Reserving room at the low end for "Smallest sword" if anyone gets cute about the Long Knife.

Curved equivalents will have "curved" inserted between <size> and "sword".

And then the fencing weapons will feel my wrath! Oh yes in deed! Don't feel so proud of your "Smaller poky sword" now, do you? Bwahahahaha.

*cough*

I guess this basically puts me in the "Pick a name and stick with it" camp.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

*For instance, the "Chronic Depression" listed in the Basic Set actually refers to what a psychiatrist would call "Recurring Major Depression with Suicidal Ideation".

Melancholic Type.

;)

[Not another shrubbery]

Would Asta Kask... Asta Kask... please report to Lost and Found regarding some missing "irony"? Thank you.

;)

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

I prefer arming sword. Crusader sword, Viking sword, spatha, amd cut-and-thrust sword are all variously useful, but less universal. Anything mostly straight with two cutting edges is an arming sword.

But that includes rapiers and some estocs. Also, 'arming sword' isn't really any more universal than 'broadsword' or 'longsword'.

Longsword is a nice term, and was probably used colloquially, but unfortunately in recent history is associated with one-and-a-half-handed arming swords, or "battle swords."

And also with german one-and-a-half-handed duelling swords.

As for the non-thrusting weapons... those are called "meat cleavers." For most of history, the only non-pointy swords you will find are made of pre-Iron Age materials or appear in a sporting setting (like tournament weapons and late-era gladiator weapons).

While they had points, falchions and large saex, etc., weren't really suited to thrusting.

Basic D&D used "normal sword," which is terrible yet completely apt.

Yep.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Rupert

But that includes rapiers and some estocs. Also, 'arming sword' isn't really any more universal than 'broadsword' or 'longsword'.

Estocs do not have two (useful) cutting edges. Rapiers do have cutting edges, but not all the way down the blade... and to 18th century fencers, a battle-ready rapier was considered a broadsword!

While they had points, falchions and large saex, etc., weren't really suited to thrusting.

True, but to me that says, Swing-based cutting only, or if you get backed into a corner, thrust-based cutting at -1 to hit. Not crushing damage.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Would Asta Kask... Asta Kask... please report to Lost and Found regarding some missing "irony"? Thank you.

;)

I like to think of it as more of a steely resolve to avoid confusing terminology...

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I've reached the point that if any of my players kick up a fuss about this I will start referring to them as "Smaller sword", "Medium sword", "Bigger sword", and "Huge Sword". Reserving room at the low end for "Smallest sword" if anyone gets cute about the Long Knife.

Hey sounds workable to me. And historical, really - OK English seems to have opted for short, (null word for which GURPS substitutes broad), long and great in place of smaller, medium, bigger and huge, but I think your choices are semantic equivalents that would be just fine in a translation. Almost any debate about "proper" sword names is an exercise in quibbling over translations anyway - English not being much of a literary language until after swords were no longer primary weapons, and not fixing the spelling as sword until later than that.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Hey sounds workable to me. And historical, really - OK English seems to have opted for short, (null word for which GURPS substitutes broad), long and great in place of smaller, medium, bigger and huge, but I think your choices are semantic equivalents that would be just fine in a translation. Almost any debate about "proper" sword names is an exercise in quibbling over translations anyway - English not being much of a literary language until after swords were no longer primary weapons, and not fixing the spelling as sword until later than that.

I agree. Terminology is useless unless everyone agrees to use standardised definitions. Whether GURPS is accurate or not, everyone who uses the rules knows what generic weapons the rules refer to.

The term "broadsword" is not a contemporary term. It first seems to have been used by William Veitch in 1678 to differentiate broad bladed military swords from narrow bladed civilian swords, and today it is such a general term that it is largely meaningless. As MA states, a more correct term for a single-handed sword with a cruciform hilt (cross-guard) would be "arming sword." i.e. the sword you were "armed" with – worn on the hip. However, to remain consistent with GURPS the term "broadsword" should be defined as a straight-bladed sword with a cruciform hilt which is longer than a "shortsword" and shorter than a "longsword". Typically this will have a blade length between 2 and 3 feet.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

The term "broadsword" is not a contemporary term. It first seems to have been used by William Veitch in 1678 to differentiate broad bladed military swords from narrow bladed civilian swords,

Veitch might even have had in mind some English Civil War era cavalry swords that were indeed very broad (4-5 fingers wide) straight-edged blades and only tapered just before the tip.

Of course, those wouldn't be arming swords because they almost universally had basket hilts. Some of them were backswords too i.e not sharp along the back of the blade.

In a given context you can be pretty specific but for a "general" term all you can do is be considtant in your usage and say 'If a broadsword was good enough for Conan it's good enough for me.". :)