Martial Arts: Celtic, Roman, Viking Swords

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

Considering that GURPS defines a katana as a one or two-handed cut and thrust sword, GURPS would seem to agree with you, Fred. Are you suggesting a better term than arming sword? "Broadsword" is no good, because it's a specific weapon, and not always the same specific weapon, and in any case not representative of its class. It would be like calling the Knife skill the Kukri skill.

Broadsword is a specific weapon? News to me.

<shrug> Were we now standing at the beginning of all things Gurps-ish I would define one-handed sword skills as "short" and "long" because that's the crucial dividing point in the skill descriptions. Of course, we aren't standing at such a point, not even in terms of 4th edition.

Still almost anything is better than "arming sword". That doesn't identify the weapon in question based on any characteristic of the weapon. Instead it defines the weapon by how a specific group carried/used it (they were usually armed with such a weapon).

I certainly wouldn't call the _Skill_ "arming sword". Gurps Broadsword covers many things that aren't arming swords.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Martial Arts wasn't Low-Tech, so its job was to make sure that every fighting style had its weapons, not to correct or clarify the Basic Set's weapons terminology . . . .

Ah. It looked like there was a bit of effort spent on "correcting" some weapons terminology, hence my confusion with the broadsword's discussion of medieval arming sword, 17th century writers, etc. "Arming sword" is itself a term that needs definition, so defining broadsword as "a term for arming sword" followed by length wasn't quite as clear as it might have been to non-experts who don't know whether this included or precluded other straight swords of similar dimensions.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm not sure the cynicism is justified. You were part of the playtest, and must be aware that the authors added that terminology to the "broadsword" entry at playtester insistence. It wasn't there in the first draft, and the people who insisted we add it did cite sources, while those who were opposed did not.

It's mildly useful detail to know what people might have called the weapon in a period - the reference was just a bit confusing, which is ONLY significant because it's to (for many adventurers) the single most important weapon, i.e., the classic fantasy/ dark ages/ medieval sword.

That said, however, IS there a generic term used by weapons experts if not scholars for a mid-sized straight sword like the arming sword or viking sword? I gather the technical distinction has to do with the development of grip?) that is actually better than "broadsword?" I mean, something like "Oakshotte Type X-XII or whatever is certainly not historical either...

So, if pretending that one was creating a new "generic" RPG (or writing the definitive Low-Tech from a blank slate) and minor hand grip details between the spatha and arming sword are, as in GURPS, below resolution, what the ideal "term" for such a weapon be? Bearing in mind that it shouldn't be something that's too long, so writing "one-handed 30-40" cut-and-thrust sword" on your character sheet is kind of silly.

- Medium Sword?
- Broadsword?
- Spatha? Arming sword?
- "Sword"? (worked for Traveller)

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

Ah. It looked like there was a bit of effort spent on "correcting" some weapons terminology

Oh, where we could get away with it -- and somebody could turn up sources -- we did "correct." It's just that it wasn't a primary goal. We just needed to make sure that if we had, say, duelling styles for polearms and obscure Indian martial arts from Kerala, there were actually short pollaxes and urumis in the book.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

It's mildly useful detail to know what people might have called the weapon in a period . . .

Probably "sword" or its translation, 99 times in 100. There are precious few periods where there were enough different swords in regular use all at once that one needed special terms to distinguish between them. And I'd be willing to bet that when there were, most ordinary users applied simple adjectives like "short," "long," "light," "heavy," "thin," and "broad."

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Broadsword is a specific weapon? News to me.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The term broadsword is used to refer to different types of swords, across many cultures and time periods.

During the 17th through 19th centuries, the term was used in Europe as a name for a specific design of sword, namely a straight-bladed, double-edged, basket-hilted sword like the Italian schiavona or the Scottish claymore (which has been used to describe both basket-hilted blades and the more popular greatsword). Surviving examples of such swords are around 105 cm long (90 cm of which is blade) with a base blade width of 3.5 cm and a mass of about one kilogram.
In modern usage, "broadsword" inappropriately refers to a category of swords, specifically those whose blade geometry is designed for cutting and slashing attacks, as opposed to the fencing weapons and their emphasis on thrusts and stabs. This began after the advent of the slimmer-bladed rapier, smallsword and épée during the Renaissance, and was picked up by museum curators during the 19th century as a catch-all for all slashing swords, including the Medieval arming sword, longsword and greatsword.
The Chinese Dao is sometimes translated as "broadsword", due to its wide blade and design similarities to the European sabre and Middle-Eastern scimitar, both of which can be considered "broadswords" (second sense, above) due to the slashing nature of their attacks.

Main Entry: clay·more
Pronunciation: \ˈklā-ˌmȯr\
Function: noun
Etymology: Scottish Gaelic claidheamh mór, literally, great sword
Date: 1527
: a large 2-edged sword formerly used by Scottish Highlanders; also : their basket-hilted broadsword

Main Entry: broad·sword
Pronunciation: \ˈbrȯd-ˌsȯrd\
Function: noun
Date: before 12th century
: a large heavy sword with a broad blade for cutting rather than thrusting

Hence, "thrusting broadsword" is an ugly, ugly term. It leads to:

"A large heavy sword with a broad blade for cutting rather than thrusting, that is usually narrow and used mainly for thrusting. Or, sometimes, a basket-hilted cut-and-thrust sword."

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Probably "sword" or its translation, 99 times in 100. There are precious few periods where there were enough different swords in regular use all at once that one needed special terms to distinguish between them. And I'd be willing to bet that when there were, most ordinary users applied simple adjectives like "short," "long," "light," "heavy," "thin," and "broad."

A good example can be seen with the "gladius," the Roman term for a sword, that because it was the sword in use, become the word for swords in general. In later eras, gladius meant sword generically, whereas the sword originally called the gladius gained the retronym semispatha, or "half spatha." Spatha was the Roman larger sword, from a Greek word meaning... blade.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

Main Entry: broad·sword
Pronunciation: \ˈbrȯd-ˌsȯrd\
Function: noun
Date: before 12th century
: a large heavy sword with a broad blade for cutting rather than thrusting

Hence, "thrusting broadsword" is an ugly, ugly term. It leads to:

"A large heavy sword with a broad blade for cutting rather than thrusting, that is usually narrow and used mainly for thrusting. Or, sometimes, a basket-hilted cut-and-thrust sword."

What term do you prefer? Also, which GURPS weapon stats apply to the non-thrusting broadsword?

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

What term do you prefer? Also, which GURPS weapon stats apply to the non-thrusting broadsword?

I prefer arming sword. Crusader sword, Viking sword, spatha, amd cut-and-thrust sword are all variously useful, but less universal. Anything mostly straight with two cutting edges is an arming sword. A scimitar or shamsir or saber is, by some definitions, not a sword at all, but in any case, saber or scimitar serves for curved blades. The katana is a longsword/scimitar compromise.

Longsword is a nice term, and was probably used colloquially, but unfortunately in recent history is associated with one-and-a-half-handed arming swords, or "battle swords." Thanks to Renaissance fencers, the same weapons are also "broadswords," such that both the terms broadsword and longsword have been sucked into a blackhole and now are often used to refer to specific weapons (but not always the same weapon, and sometimes the same weapon as each other).

Honestly, "Sword" and "Shortsword" would probably be okay in general, but it's not preferable for a gaming product, because sword also has to refer to items of equipment.

Historically, Spatha is more representative of its type, but who says "spatha?"

As for the non-thrusting weapons... those are called "meat cleavers." For most of history, the only non-pointy swords you will find are made of pre-Iron Age materials or appear in a sporting setting (like tournament weapons and late-era gladiator weapons).

Basic D&D used "normal sword," which is terrible yet completely apt.

[Omega Man]

Hey everyone, great topic! I'm new here and I'm new to GURPS. I'm generally more of a reader of forums than a poster, but I thought I'd say 'Hi'.

I've gathered the Basic books, Martial Arts, and High Tech and just ordered Low Tech (thanks to this very thread ;). I'm looking to eventually run a Post Apocalyptic campaign set in the western US of A. It's a darn shame there's no proper book for it in the GURPS line. A heck of an oversite if you ask me (but I know I'm biased).

Arming sword and it's equivalent, sidearm (that was good, IMO), thrusting broadsword, thrusting greatsword, or whatever sword. It really had me thinking today as I spent yet another Saturday at work. The weapons and their stats seem just fine to me, but those names strike me as a bit odd. Happily names are easy to deal with.

Like I said I'm new, but from what I can gather melee weapons of a 'class' share very similar stat lines, so that a shortsword and cutlass, for example, do the same cut and impale damage. Since a cutlass is curved and single-edged and a shortsword is straight and double-edged, this looks interesting on the face of it. I'm currently thinking this is because damage as it's tracked in GURPS is not granulated enough to detect the difference. Am I correct in thinking this way?

In the end, to me, it sure looks like it all comes down to "what's in a name?" A small group of standard weapons are used as templates and tweaked a very little bit if needed to make a specific weapon in the 'class'.
Which works for me. I like easy.