Martial Arts: Celtic, Roman, Viking Swords

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

"

In short, any one-handed balanced blade over 24 inches long is a broadsword and I've never actually seen Gurps "standard" broadsword with its' blunt tip. I've seen "too curved to thrust with" but not just "blunt".

I'd always assumed that was the falchion and similar weapons.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

"Arming sword" is pretty close to "OPH:I know _proper_ weapons nomenclature".

I'm not sure the cynicism is justified. You were part of the playtest, and must be aware that the authors added that terminology to the "broadsword" entry at playtester insistence. It wasn't there in the first draft, and the people who insisted we add it did cite sources, while those who were opposed did not.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

I wasn't looking for stats for spatha, viking swords, etc. - I was just puzzled why mid-length swords were not mentioned at all when the text appeared to take pains to say things like "Shortsword (Universal): See Basic Set."

Martial Arts wasn't Low-Tech, so its job was to make sure that every fighting style had its weapons, not to correct or clarify the Basic Set's weapons terminology . . . which is admittedly dodgy and can trace its origins to whatever sources Man to Man used in the early 1980s. Generally, we took the stance that one-handed cut-and-thrust swords would, in game terms, be either "shortswords" or "thrusting broadswords" (which, as we explicitly noted, would be most broadswords). Anything bigger than a gladius rates as the latter for any useful purpose.

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

I'm still not sure, for example, whether there is a thing as a cutting broadsword or not!

Evidence says "not." We had specific orders not to go about saying, "The Basic Set is wrong." Low-Tech gets that honor. The best we could do is suggest that it didn't have the full picture, whence our "traditionally pointed" comment. I don't think there's much reason to assume that blunt-tipped swords make a lot of sense, though.

Unfortunately, a lot of people wanted Martial Arts to be Low-Tech for some reason, so you're going to run into a lot of opinion here.

[pawsplay]

Even the shorter spatha and "Celtic sword" would be thrusting broadswords simply because of the way they were used (both were used on horseback as well as foot), despite being sort of short for a broadsword as GURPS defines it (GURPS seems to use late Medieval era lengths, and heavy weights besides).

As for the handguard thing... there are marginal differences, but even a spatha's guard is plenty enough for a proper parry, especially if you parry with the low part of the blade rather than the guard (which I would recommend). Admittedly it's not live steel, but I know that with rattan as well as boffer weapons, I prefer a minimal round guard to a cross-bar, and I avoid hilt contact as much as possible.

In short, any one-handed balanced blade over 24 inches long is a broadsword and I've never actually seen Gurps "standard" broadsword with its' blunt tip. I've seen "too curved to thrust with" but not just "blunt".

Off-hand, I can think of only Aztec weapons, which were also made of obsidian or wood and obsidian, and tournament weapons, which aren't strictly real combat swords but might be worth statting.

Late-era gladiator weapons were blunted and often iron, but were shortswords.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

Even the shorter spatha and "Celtic sword" would be thrusting broadswords simply because of the way they were used (both were used on horseback as well as foot), despite being sort of short for a broadsword as GURPS defines it (GURPS seems to use late Medieval era lengths, and heavy weights besides).

As for the handguard thing... there are marginal differences, but even a spatha's guard is plenty enough for a proper parry, especially if you parry with the low part of the blade rather than the guard (which I would recommend). Admittedly it's not live steel, but I know that with rattan as well as boffer weapons, I prefer a minimal round guard to a cross-bar, and I avoid hilt contact as much as possible.

In short, any one-handed balanced blade over 24 inches long is a broadsword and I've never actually seen Gurps "standard" broadsword with its' blunt tip. I've seen "too curved to thrust with" but not just "blunt".

Off-hand, I can think of only Aztec weapons, which were also made of obsidian or wood and obsidian, and tournament weapons, which aren't strictly real combat swords but might be worth statting.

Late-era gladiator weapons were blunted and often iron, but were shortswords.

Various Central Asian peoples used long knives as a cavalry sidearm, so I don't think classifying weapons by use (rather than shape and size, as GURPS does) is wise. Also, as far as I know, three pounds is well within normal range for a sword 2.5 to 3 feet long with scabbard. The Basic Set p. B208 uses the same definition for broadsword that you do.

I think the non-thrusting broadsword is supposed to represent weapons with a rounded, not-especially-sharp tip. Letting them do sw+1 cut/th+1 imp would probably be fair, since few swords had completly blunt tips.

Thanks for your comments on crossguards.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Various Central Asian peoples used long knives as a cavalry sidearm, so I don't think classifying weapons by use (rather than shape and size, as GURPS does) is wise.

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that for a weapon on the cusp between shortsword and broadsword, the fact that it was routinely used from horseback to behead people suggest that it's actual use and characteristics are those of the broadsword, which is generally used that way (and shortswords less so). Also, it probably does not have the lower ST requirement.

You could make the argument that the spatha can be used with either weapon skill and constitutes its own familiarity. But I think the spatha/semispatha distinction is a good enough reason to draw the line between Broadsword and Shortsword, that is essentially the distinction made by the Romans themselves.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm not sure the cynicism is justified. You were part of the playtest, and must be aware that the authors added that terminology to the "broadsword" entry at playtester insistence. It wasn't there in the first draft, and the people who insisted we add it did cite sources, while those who were opposed did not.

A couple of playtesters who were very wrapped up in modern scholarship about historical Europe. You could talk about the arming swords of Japan or the Middle East just as validly, you'd be discussing different swords though.

Like I said "arming sword" is fine as long as you already know which weapon you're discussing. It's not an identifier in itself.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

As for the handguard thing... there are marginal differences, but even a spatha's guard is plenty enough for a proper parry, especially if you parry with the low part of the blade rather than the guard (which I would recommend). Admittedly it's not live steel, but I know that with rattan as well as boffer weapons, I prefer a minimal round guard to a cross-bar, and I avoid hilt contact as much as possible.

Thrusting with boffer weapons is generally not allowed and it's parrying thrusts where the handguard is more important. The elaborate handguards of the Renaissance were there for a reason.

You can see it most clearly on the side-loops of parrying daggers. You hold the dagger point up with the loop where your forefinger joins your hand. See...

http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item198.html

When someone thrusts at you, you take your left hand dagger and put it in the inside of the thrusting blade. You then push up and out to push the thrust away from your body. Sometimes the attacking blade slides down the dagger and goes "ching" against the side loop and your friends do not start calling you "no-knuckles".

When parrying a swing the motion is more like a beat where you deflect the blade with impact. You're much less likely to have the attacking blade slide down yours.

[pawsplay]

Considering that GURPS defines a katana as a one or two-handed cut and thrust sword, GURPS would seem to agree with you, Fred. Are you suggesting a better term than arming sword? "Broadsword" is no good, because it's a specific weapon, and not always the same specific weapon, and in any case not representative of its class. It would be like calling the Knife skill the Kukri skill.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Thrusting with boffer weapons is generally not allowed and it's parrying thrusts where the handguard is more important.

Thrusting is definitely allowed in Amtgard.