Fantasy and lack of Human Sub races

Highland_Piper · 03-08-2008, 03:43 PM

I've been doing a lot of research for my campaign world. I want something different, something that I have never done before.

In my research, which includes history books, fantasy novels, other RPG games, I have noticed that you will always find "Jungle Elves" or "Fire Gnomes" but you don't see the same for humans. Its just Humans that live in the jungle.

Why is it ok to make sub-races of other creatures and not humans?

Does anyone know of a game or fantasy novel that does have human sub-races?

Maybe thats why I like the GURPS Ghouls so much, they could certainly be a sub-race of humans.

Granted Super Hero and Sci-Fi games can have Sub-races of Human, it just has not creeped into fantasy.

bjork · 03-08-2008, 03:52 PM

If you included computer RPGs in games I'd say the Elder Scroll series (with Morrowind and Oblivion as the latest installments). They've got Imperials, Redguards, Bretons, and Nords; all clearly based on human races. Don't remember any mention whatsoever of any children with parents from different races in the game though.

Here's a link to more info on all the races in that universe.

malloyd · 03-08-2008, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highland_Piper

In my research, which includes history books, fantasy novels, other RPG games, I have noticed that you will always find "Jungle Elves" or "Fire Gnomes" but you don't see the same for humans. Its just Humans that live in the jungle.

Because Jungle Elves are de facto a human sub-race. Seriously, I think this really is why. Any human subspecies that diverged enough from humans to need a separate race description would simply be yet another humanoid race. How after all would you distinguish between the two categories?

StevenH · 03-08-2008, 04:20 PM

Highland Piper makes a very good point. There are a lot of non-Human sub races, and very few (if any) Human ones. (I have done it a bit, but they range in the +/-10 points range, and are mostly cultural and "skill package" differences).

I would like to see some examples that are a bit more in-depth, myself. Even ones that include more variances including physical and mental differences, not just cultural ones. For myself, I tend to prefer "realistic" differences, but that is probably just because I am a "stick in the mud" :-)

Has anyone made any Human variants? In an SF game, genetic modifications make it pretty easy. But how likely are significant differences in a lower tech game world?

Edit: MA Lloyd brings up a good point as well, which is, if I understand it correctly, a labeling issue. If the race is different enough to warrant a different point cost, call it a different race. (And apologies in advance if I am misunderstanding or oversimplifying.)

But...I have never considered Elves and Dwarves and Klingons or whatever to be the same race/species as Humans. (Okay, since Elves and Klingons can supposedly interbreed with Humans, that technically makes them the same species...but that always bugged me anyway!) To me, other races aren't just considered a Human sub-race. They are different genetic lineages, and while the game effect may just be a different label, I try to make them more than that.

David Johnston2 · 03-08-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highland_Piper

I've been doing a lot of research for my campaign world. I want something different, something that I have never done before.

In my research, which includes history books, fantasy novels, other RPG games, I have noticed that you will always find "Jungle Elves" or "Fire Gnomes" but you don't see the same for humans. Its just Humans that live in the jungle.

Why is it ok to make sub-races of other creatures and not humans?
.

Say "Fire Human" out loud. Now say "Jungle Human". Doesn't it sound dorky? The problem lies in the name for our species. If it was a single syllable or had hard consonants it would be fine.

bjork · 03-08-2008, 04:25 PM

I guess it is important if you want to use race (and species) a bit more like they are used outside fantasy. So that a species means a group capable of producing fertile offspring and a race is a subgroup of a species based upon some identifiable characteristics.

Not that race is the most well-defined and politically correct concept.

feydras · 03-08-2008, 04:39 PM

Along with a half-dozen non-human sentient races i've got a handful of ethnicities for the humans in my setting. Originally this was inspired by Privateer Press's excellent, but unfortunately D&D, setting the Iron Kingdoms. As i inported thier Five Fingers city into my homebrew i came up with mostly all new ethnicities. One of my players and i have just begun going over them but i'll post our current draft. One goal i had was not to overuse any of the traits but also to give choice to each template. I'd love to see some feedback, and more importantly some suggestions. My guess is that any stating out paired with descriptions may lead into an ugly racism discussion and i'm hoping to avoid that if possible. The following descriptions are for my fantasy campaign and have no basis in reality other than the naming suggestions as stated.

Most common to least common in Five Fingers

Ord
Description: Light skinned, med build but often shorter. Outgoing, broad reaching, explorer mentality, can be oblivious
Region: originally native to the Iron Kingdoms, but widespread in EndWorld.
Fit (+5)
Choose: Will+1 (+5), Charismatic (+5), or Absolute Direction (+5)
Choose: Curious (-5) or Overcondident (-5)

Thurian
Description: Fair hair and ruddy tones. Strategic minded, excellent learners.
Region: native to eastern Iron Kingdoms
IQ +1 (+10, do not apply to Per and Will)
Choose: Callous (-5) or Selfish (-5)

Runi
Description: Ashen/grey skin, thin, black to grey hair. Quiet, insular, stealthy, often poor. Often abused by others.
Region: native to the southern continent, but found everywhere in numbers
Using slavic names
Silence 1 (+5)
High Pain Threshold (+10) or Medium (rare) (+10)
Autotrance (+1) or Skill: Gesture - Runi 1pt (+1)
Phobia, Obsession or Delusion (usually regarding dark fears) (-1)
Social Stigma: Minority (-5)

Jinn
Description: Olive skinned, short. Cosmopolitin, talkative, social.
Region: Ammad states west of the Iron Kingdoms.
Using Hindi names
Language Talent (+10) or Sensitive (+5) and Flexible (+5)
Chummy (-5) or Gluttony (-5)

Drus
Description: Smooth ebony skin, very thin. Violent tendencies, intricate art and culture.
Region: Zaramel, far east of Iron Kingdoms
Basic Speed +0.5 (+10)
Skill: Saivor Faire: Drus society +1pt (+1)
Careful quirk (-1)
Calous (-5) or Bloodlust (SC roll 15) (–5)

Urgekistanian
Description: dark, thick hair. square built, weathered, hard expressions. Closely knit, guarded dispositions, pride in martial skill.
Region: Urgolian main provinces, north of the Iron Kingdoms.
Using Russian names.
High Pain Threshold (+10)
Overconfidence (-5) or Incurious (-5)

Get
Description: Light skinned, hairy, rugged. Suspicious, independent.
Region: Dominant ethnicity of Urgolia, north of the Iron Kingdoms
Using Norse names
Fearless 2 (+4)
No Hangover or Perk: Strongbow (+1)
Striking ST +1 (+5)
Stubborn (-5) or Truthfulness (-5)

Karn
Description: Brown skinned, broad shouldered. Determined, patient.
Region: Karn dominate the great southern continent.
Singleminded (+5)
Lifting ST +1 (+3)
Hard to Subdue (+2)
Workaholic or Hidebound (–5)

Crakkerjakk · 03-08-2008, 04:49 PM

I was planning on picking up the IK World Guide, to convert to GURPS. Do you own that Feydras? Would you say it's worth ~$50?

GnomesofZurich · 03-08-2008, 04:53 PM

The Thieves' World anthologies had very distinct nations of humans of differing appearance and culture. One different enough to qualify as a human sub-race would be the Beysib, a ocean-going culture which shared certain qualities of fish (a nictitating membrane, at least vestigial gills) as well as an affinity for snakes. As I recall, the noble Beysib even had poisonous blood.

Another source which has had distinct human cultures and sub-races (nothing on the order of Jungle or Fire humans) is the 2nd AD&D Birthright campaign setting.

Maz · 03-08-2008, 05:40 PM

First, what is a 'race'? To me when talking fantasy, a different race means having a different genetic set-up that means you are physically and maybe even mentally different from others.

All races are human sub-races.
Anything not 100% human tends to be classified as something else than human. Just look a history for a large part just being from a different class of society made you another 'race'. You were not born with the same abilities. and do not let us get started over black, jewish, caucasian and so on. So if it got pointy ears it's not human, it's something else... it's an elf. If it's below 3' it's not human, it's a dwarf (or a child, but children are hardly humans anyway ;)).

There are lots of examples of human sub-races they are just called something else, as they are not human.

What exactly do you mean when you are looking for human sub-races. It soudns to me that you are stuck in a D&D frame of mind and thinking in templates and special abilities.
If you want fire-humans. Just give them some fire abilities and call them that. They could also be called Fire-elementals, jinns, fire-spirits, fire-elves, demons or a bunch of other names it doesn't matter really.

The only important factors IMO, that 'link' one race to another, making it a sub-race instead of an individual race is the ability to interbreed.

[more rant]Personally I despise sub-races. Especially of the D&D variant were it really is nothing more than cultural differences. Wild-elf being a prime example. I much prefer how it's done in, for instance Warhammer. Dark elf, Wood elves and High Elves are all the same race, they just live differently.
This doesn't make them to different races anymore than Americans and Danes are different races. Persoanlly I prefer Fantasy setting with a bare minimum of races but then use those races more instead of inventing new ones to each 'role'. [/rant]

03-08-2008, 03:43 PM	#1
Highland_Piper Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Oxford, UK	Fantasy and lack of Human Sub races I've been doing a lot of research for my campaign world. I want something different, something that I have never done before. In my research, which includes history books, fantasy novels, other RPG games, I have noticed that you will always find "Jungle Elves" or "Fire Gnomes" but you don't see the same for humans. Its just Humans that live in the jungle. Why is it ok to make sub-races of other creatures and not humans? Does anyone know of a game or fantasy novel that does have human sub-races? Maybe thats why I like the GURPS Ghouls so much, they could certainly be a sub-race of humans. Granted Super Hero and Sci-Fi games can have Sub-races of Human, it just has not creeped into fantasy.

03-08-2008, 03:52 PM	#2
bjork Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Göteborg, Sweden	Re: Fantasy and lack of Human Sub races If you included computer RPGs in games I'd say the Elder Scroll series (with Morrowind and Oblivion as the latest installments). They've got Imperials, Redguards, Bretons, and Nords; all clearly based on human races. Don't remember any mention whatsoever of any children with parents from different races in the game though. Here's a link to more info on all the races in that universe. __________________ Bjork RPG supplement addict - mistake them for literature... Last edited by bjork; 03-08-2008 at 04:01 PM. Reason: added examples

03-08-2008, 04:20 PM	#4
StevenH Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Portland, Oregon	Re: Fantasy and lack of Human Sub races Highland Piper makes a very good point. There are a lot of non-Human sub races, and very few (if any) Human ones. (I have done it a bit, but they range in the +/-10 points range, and are mostly cultural and "skill package" differences). I would like to see some examples that are a bit more in-depth, myself. Even ones that include more variances including physical and mental differences, not just cultural ones. For myself, I tend to prefer "realistic" differences, but that is probably just because I am a "stick in the mud" :-) Has anyone made any Human variants? In an SF game, genetic modifications make it pretty easy. But how likely are significant differences in a lower tech game world? Edit: MA Lloyd brings up a good point as well, which is, if I understand it correctly, a labeling issue. If the race is different enough to warrant a different point cost, call it a different race. (And apologies in advance if I am misunderstanding or oversimplifying.) But...I have never considered Elves and Dwarves and Klingons or whatever to be the same race/species as Humans. (Okay, since Elves and Klingons can supposedly interbreed with Humans, that technically makes them the same species...but that always bugged me anyway!) To me, other races aren't just considered a Human sub-race. They are different genetic lineages, and while the game effect may just be a different label, I try to make them more than that. __________________ Warmest regards, StevenH My current worldbuilding project. You can find the Adventure Logs of the campaign here. I try to write them up as narrative prose, with illustrations. As such, they are "embellished" accounts of the play sessions. Link of the moment: Bestiary of Plants. In a world of mana, plants evolved to use it as an energy source. It is also the new home of the Alaconius Lectures, a series of essays about the various Colleges of Spells. Last edited by StevenH; 03-08-2008 at 04:37 PM. Reason: Adding references to MA Lloyd's post

03-08-2008, 04:25 PM	#6
bjork Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Göteborg, Sweden	Re: Fantasy and lack of Human Sub races I guess it is important if you want to use race (and species) a bit more like they are used outside fantasy. So that a species means a group capable of producing fertile offspring and a race is a subgroup of a species based upon some identifiable characteristics. Not that race is the most well-defined and politically correct concept. __________________ Bjork RPG supplement addict - mistake them for literature...

03-08-2008, 04:39 PM	#7
feydras Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle	Re: Fantasy and lack of Human Sub races Along with a half-dozen non-human sentient races i've got a handful of ethnicities for the humans in my setting. Originally this was inspired by Privateer Press's excellent, but unfortunately D&D, setting the Iron Kingdoms. As i inported thier Five Fingers city into my homebrew i came up with mostly all new ethnicities. One of my players and i have just begun going over them but i'll post our current draft. One goal i had was not to overuse any of the traits but also to give choice to each template. I'd love to see some feedback, and more importantly some suggestions. My guess is that any stating out paired with descriptions may lead into an ugly racism discussion and i'm hoping to avoid that if possible. The following descriptions are for my fantasy campaign and have no basis in reality other than the naming suggestions as stated. Most common to least common in Five Fingers Ord Description: Light skinned, med build but often shorter. Outgoing, broad reaching, explorer mentality, can be oblivious Region: originally native to the Iron Kingdoms, but widespread in EndWorld. Fit (+5) Choose: Will+1 (+5), Charismatic (+5), or Absolute Direction (+5) Choose: Curious (-5) or Overcondident (-5) Thurian Description: Fair hair and ruddy tones. Strategic minded, excellent learners. Region: native to eastern Iron Kingdoms IQ +1 (+10, do not apply to Per and Will) Choose: Callous (-5) or Selfish (-5) Runi Description: Ashen/grey skin, thin, black to grey hair. Quiet, insular, stealthy, often poor. Often abused by others. Region: native to the southern continent, but found everywhere in numbers Using slavic names Silence 1 (+5) High Pain Threshold (+10) or Medium (rare) (+10) Autotrance (+1) or Skill: Gesture - Runi 1pt (+1) Phobia, Obsession or Delusion (usually regarding dark fears) (-1) Social Stigma: Minority (-5) Jinn Description: Olive skinned, short. Cosmopolitin, talkative, social. Region: Ammad states west of the Iron Kingdoms. Using Hindi names Language Talent (+10) or Sensitive (+5) and Flexible (+5) Chummy (-5) or Gluttony (-5) Drus Description: Smooth ebony skin, very thin. Violent tendencies, intricate art and culture. Region: Zaramel, far east of Iron Kingdoms Basic Speed +0.5 (+10) Skill: Saivor Faire: Drus society +1pt (+1) Careful quirk (-1) Calous (-5) or Bloodlust (SC roll 15) (–5) Urgekistanian Description: dark, thick hair. square built, weathered, hard expressions. Closely knit, guarded dispositions, pride in martial skill. Region: Urgolian main provinces, north of the Iron Kingdoms. Using Russian names. High Pain Threshold (+10) Overconfidence (-5) or Incurious (-5) Get Description: Light skinned, hairy, rugged. Suspicious, independent. Region: Dominant ethnicity of Urgolia, north of the Iron Kingdoms Using Norse names Fearless 2 (+4) No Hangover or Perk: Strongbow (+1) Striking ST +1 (+5) Stubborn (-5) or Truthfulness (-5) Karn Description: Brown skinned, broad shouldered. Determined, patient. Region: Karn dominate the great southern continent. Singleminded (+5) Lifting ST +1 (+3) Hard to Subdue (+2) Workaholic or Hidebound (–5) __________________ My GURPS Iron Kingdoms inspired-homebrew campaign http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/brt

03-08-2008, 04:49 PM	#8
Crakkerjakk "Gimme 18 minutes . . ." Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Albuquerque, NM	Re: Fantasy and lack of Human Sub races I was planning on picking up the IK World Guide, to convert to GURPS. Do you own that Feydras? Would you say it's worth ~$50? __________________ My bare bones web page Semper Fi

03-08-2008, 04:53 PM	#9
GnomesofZurich Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Canada	Re: Fantasy and lack of Human Sub races The Thieves' World anthologies had very distinct nations of humans of differing appearance and culture. One different enough to qualify as a human sub-race would be the Beysib, a ocean-going culture which shared certain qualities of fish (a nictitating membrane, at least vestigial gills) as well as an affinity for snakes. As I recall, the noble Beysib even had poisonous blood. Another source which has had distinct human cultures and sub-races (nothing on the order of Jungle or Fire humans) is the 2nd AD&D Birthright campaign setting.

03-08-2008, 05:40 PM	#10
Maz Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Denmark	Re: Fantasy and lack of Human Sub races First, what is a 'race'? To me when talking fantasy, a different race means having a different genetic set-up that means you are physically and maybe even mentally different from others. All races are human sub-races. Anything not 100% human tends to be classified as something else than human. Just look a history for a large part just being from a different class of society made you another 'race'. You were not born with the same abilities. and do not let us get started over black, jewish, caucasian and so on. So if it got pointy ears it's not human, it's something else... it's an elf. If it's below 3' it's not human, it's a dwarf (or a child, but children are hardly humans anyway ;)). There are lots of examples of human sub-races they are just called something else, as they are not human. What exactly do you mean when you are looking for human sub-races. It soudns to me that you are stuck in a D&D frame of mind and thinking in templates and special abilities. If you want fire-humans. Just give them some fire abilities and call them that. They could also be called Fire-elementals, jinns, fire-spirits, fire-elves, demons or a bunch of other names it doesn't matter really. The only important factors IMO, that 'link' one race to another, making it a sub-race instead of an individual race is the ability to interbreed. [more rant]Personally I despise sub-races. Especially of the D&D variant were it really is nothing more than cultural differences. Wild-elf being a prime example. I much prefer how it's done in, for instance Warhammer. Dark elf, Wood elves and High Elves are all the same race, they just live differently. This doesn't make them to different races anymore than Americans and Danes are different races. Persoanlly I prefer Fantasy setting with a bare minimum of races but then use those races more instead of inventing new ones to each 'role'. [/rant]