Dungeon Fantasy Enchantment Power

[vitruvian]

Fast enchantments -- whatever the cost in $ and points -- allow customized items, which is where things get dicey.

Actually, that brings me to a subsidiary question about Dungeon Fantasy... given the presence of Alchemy in the Wizard template, and items like the Backpack Alchemy Lab in the gear section, I assume the same restriction doesn't apply to PCs brewing their own alchemical potions. Is it just the fact that by their very nature, potions have limited uses that makes being able to brew custom potions less problematic?

It seems to me, if that's the real dividing line, that it might not be too disruptive to campaign balance to allow Quick & Dirty castings by PCs, especially of one-or limited-use items like Scrolls and Spellstones, reserving only the bigger Slow & Sure enchantments to NPC enchanters. Things like boots of Haste (or worse, Great Haste), or enchanted weaponry and armor with more than a +1 bonus to anything, would still be beyond the reach of PC enchanters.

The other thing that occurs to me, is that if the GM wants to keep control of which types of magic items get into the party's hands by determing when they're found as plunder or for sale, it's almost as easy to do in a game with PC enchanters as without. After all, if you don't want them to be able to get six or seven sets of Haste boots, +5 swords, +5 rings of protection, etc., the GM running a game with no PC enchanters simply needs to say that no such items are currently available at Ye Olde Magick Shoppe, no matter how many GP the party has to spend. In a game *with* PC enchanters, the GM just has to also say that some or all of the ingredients necessary for the desired enchantment aren't currently available. If the players balk at that, use the desire for the required ingredients as the impetus to get them on a quest and back into the dungeon where the PCs belong....

"No, no - you need 20 grammes of *female*, *red* dragon's gizzard for a self-powered Wand of Fireballs. Luckily, I hear there's at least one nesting in the next mountain range over...."

[vitruvian]

Thus, if DF gets enchantment rules, they need to be fast, but . . .

Hmmmm... if, as per DFA30, we can generally assume a cost of $20 per energy point for Slow & Sure enchantments, simply use the rules on DFD3 for Getting Stuff Cheap for any enchantments which a PC Wizard happens to learn. In addition, don't let them spend more on enchantment in a given day then they could earn with a standard job using their level of Wealth (an incentive for most Wizards to eventually buy Wealth up to Very Wealthy), and don't forget that they *also* need to spend to maintain their cost of living during this time period without recourse to more dungeon delving, and they have no actual income unless they sell the item at the end of the process.

I would also enforce the principle of exceedinlgy rare ingredients being needed for any enchantments I *don't* want them to have, and would play out such 'downtime' in very abbreviated fashion. For example, a given adventuring party might decide to spend about six weeks downtime at the nearest small city before going back into the dungeon, spending their hard-gotten gold and preparing themselves for the next trip. So, the mercenary Knight might spend five weeks of that at the local Armsmen Guild's training hall, and roll for his instructor's Teaching skill at the end to ensure that he got his additional point's worth of skill in some weapon skill; the Thief might make a few 'job' rolls to see if he found anything worth filching in the homes of the local burghers; and the Wizard, who's currently only Wealthy, can put in no more than, say $200 times 25 days, or $5000, 250 energy into a single enchantment the GM doesn't mind him being able to perform. Certainly, every day of city life *doesn't* need to role-played out, and the GM can allow the players to 'blue book' any amount of downtime between adventures desired, even years if he's ready for greater character change in between. I'm not sure I see this as any more contrary to a DF feel than the periodic trips to the magic shop to sell and buy magic items in games like Fate.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Hmmmm... if, as per DFA30, we can generally assume a cost of $20 per energy point for Slow & Sure enchantments, simply use the rules on DFD3 for Getting Stuff Cheap for any enchantments which a PC Wizard happens to learn.

A good idea, except that $20/SlowAndSureEnergy is specifically for used magic items. Commissioning a custom item is specifically not covered, probably so NPC enchanters can soak PCs for all they have, or so the GM can declare that the ultimate source of all enchantments is dungeons. Where do monsters get the stuff? Who knows!

Originally Posted by vitruvian

In addition, don't let them spend more on enchantment in a given day then they could earn with a standard job using their level of Wealth (an incentive for most Wizards to eventually buy Wealth up to Very Wealthy), and don't forget that they *also* need to spend to maintain their cost of living during this time period without recourse to more dungeon delving, and they have no actual income unless they sell the item at the end of the process.

Bringing in Jobs seems a little against the trend of simplification for DF1, and still has the problem of the wizard sitting around in town, making everyone else bored and poor.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I would also enforce the principle of exceedinlgy rare ingredients being needed for any enchantments I *don't* want them to have, and would play out such 'downtime' in very abbreviated fashion. For example, a given adventuring party might decide to spend about six weeks downtime at the nearest small city before going back into the dungeon, spending their hard-gotten gold and preparing themselves for the next trip. So, the mercenary Knight might spend five weeks of that at the local Armsmen Guild's training hall, and roll for his instructor's Teaching skill at the end to ensure that he got his additional point's worth of skill in some weapon skill; the Thief might make a few 'job' rolls to see if he found anything worth filching in the homes of the local burghers; and the Wizard, who's currently only Wealthy, can put in no more than, say $200 times 25 days, or $5000, 250 energy into a single enchantment the GM doesn't mind him being able to perform. Certainly, every day of city life *doesn't* need to role-played out, and the GM can allow the players to 'blue book' any amount of downtime between adventures desired, even years if he's ready for greater character change in between. I'm not sure I see this as any more contrary to a DF feel than the periodic trips to the magic shop to sell and buy magic items in games like Fate.

It still results in the Thief making Job rolls, and if the Knight doesn't want to do any training doing nothing at all. If the half-orc wasn't allowed into town in the first place, he's making a random encounter roll EVERY DAY while the wizard farts around, too.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Is it just the fact that by their very nature, potions have limited uses that makes being able to brew custom potions less problematic?

The ability to craft items that are routinely available anyway doesn't cause problems. Thus, if alchemical potions are routinely available for sale in town, it doesn't really matter if the wizard can create some on his own (though I suspect the real reason for alchemy on the template is so he can ID potions).

[Kromm]

Jobs and other downtime stuff Aren't Going To Happen. Full-fledged GURPS exists for that. :) DF is specifically written from the perspective of the sort of gamer who would exclaim, "Who the hell uses Time Use Sheets, anyway?"

And yeah, Alchemy is mostly on the wizard template for IDing potions.

[Randover]

There is a large topic about enchanting, Enchanting for GURPS?? Somewhere around here. Great points on subject are made there and several realy good articles in Pyramid are also mentioned.
As for Dungeons It shouldn't realy matter at all. I would suggest that if you Insist on having an enchanter in group, you will need the JOB rules from GURPS Champaing. I see GURPS DUNGENONS quite fine for weekend sessions.

The Crafting is realy too complex, to be enjoyed most of time. Making it too easy acctualy spoils the fun.

And for sure, is there a need for logic when there are hundreds of monsters that are all trying to get you?

Still as ever, GM has the final word even against hardcopy of Rules. Just before you start to make your own rules make sure you make it fun.

One more note for JOBS. I did understand that your job is more related to your skill and to your luck when trying to find an opportunity (roll). So buying a wealthy or very wealthy isn't need for that. You must buy that when you get rich. If you truly want to live a high status life or not is charater base choise. (Most people would - yet some rich people chose to get rid of money and live peacefuly without worries about there bankaccount.)

[vitruvian]

And yeah, Alchemy is mostly on the wizard template for IDing potions.

But they *are* allowed to use the Getting Things Cheap rules for potions, otherwise there'd be no point in saying that the portable lab was at -2 to make potions, right?

I suppose you're right that a true DF campaign isn't going to get into the use of extended downtime, and that if it does you can just go to the Jobs tables in Basic or Fantasy. Still, if a GM wanted to be a little bit flexible and allow an extension of the Getting Things Cheap rules for would-be enchanters wanting to do up a few Scrolls, or Spellstones, or +1 or flaming projectiles, I don't see how it would disrupt things any worse than allowing potion-making, or indeed than the regular buying of said gear in the local magic shop.

I guess you could go that route even for the bigger enchantments that the GM doesn't mind the PCs being able to make for themselves, at least not without special ingredients requiring another quest. It could be as simple as, you came out of the dungeon with $20,000 as your share of the treasure, that buys you the ingredients to take a week and roll vs. your skill to see if you made an item worth up to 1000 energy, or just wasted everything.

[TJA]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Jobs and other downtime stuff Aren't Going To Happen. Full-fledged GURPS exists for that. :)

I hope, that will change - as the statement "GURPS Basic will NOT go PDF" :D

I love DF and would like to see more ready-to-use rules and tools than can even be easily memorized for all stuff, also jobs, fiefs, enchantment and monsters.

:)

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

But they *are* allowed to use the Getting Things Cheap rules for potions, otherwise there'd be no point in saying that the portable lab was at -2 to make potions, right?

Oh, for sure. And you can expect more zippy rules like that one. Also, something in DF 4 will make this even more useful. I'm mostly talking about big-ticket items that require Slow and Sure Enchantment under the full-blown rules.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This has seemed kind of curious to me since I've heard it. In D&D, PCs can (and do) make Magic Items, if DF is supposed to let GURPS do the DF subgenre as well as D&D, why the restriction?

Once upon a time you had to be something like 9th level to write a scroll (and you had to have some rare monster bit you got for yourself), and 11th level to make permanent items (and they took even more exotic monster bits). Given how long levelling took back then, that's essentially the same as "no PC enchanting", especially as 9th+ level characters were 'name level' lords with lands, wizards' schools, and so on, and not dungeoneers any more.