GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 3 now available!

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The ideas that bridges should be designed by actual engineers and laws should be formulated by actual lawyers are both 'elitist'. Yet I see nothing wrong with either.

That's a poor comparison, we don't want dumb engineers to build frail bridges, but we can allow dumb players to play GURPS, can't we? :)

Why would detailed templates not be useful in play? I'd think that doing the work before you play would help play move smoother, as opposed having to do it while you play.

Yes, but if a template is too detailed it will be difficult to memorize and use it in play. It also will more easily contain mistakes when comparing it to other complex templates.
I guess you like very detailed templates, while I am happy with moderately detailed ones.
What seems to be a common opinion is, GURPS is already quite detailed, and when thinking what I'd like to see in GURPS, that's rarely "more mechanical details".

Originally Posted by Icelander

Why do you assume that just because something exist, you have to use it? Being able to reproduce Meteor Swarms in GURPS is useful if you need to do it, but having that ability in no way makes it incumbent upon you to use it. In fact, if you wish, you don't need to use any book.

Meteor Swarms, and longest templates, would have meant less of other stuff.
I like to use GURPS books, but they rarely disappoint me for lack of details, so I see no point to criticize them in that direction.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Different people want different things. In my own personal experience, some people want a very artificial experience that is recognisably a game and operates exclusively on its own internal logic, with no connection to real world logic. This is the tack taken by World of Warcraft and D&D.

Other people want a consistent set of rules capable of modelling real world physics.

GURPS aims at both groups.

Yes, and I personally belong to the second group, but I don't like overdetailed templates or bizarre powers with 12 modifiers. In my experience there is no correlation between "artificial/realistic" and "simple/detailed".
I guess that an epic hack and slash D20 campaign with lot of classes, prestige classes, races and magical items will be VERY detailed and also very artificial.

But while it's easy to not use certain rules if you feel they're too complex, it's not as easy to use rules which don't exist. Therefore, if you must err on either side, it's better to err on the side of having too much complexity available than too little.

In my opinion that would be a very poor editorial approach. Rules use pages so when you design a game you can't put everything in it.
In a detailed, universal game, where you could be tempted to detail everything, it's particularly important to select what rules and what chapters are to be inserted in a book.

Even with pdfs, pages are not "free"... someone has to write them, and if they're longer and too detailed, they will be seem more boring to many players.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Don't take me wrong, but you seem to have an elitarian approach which, in my opinion, is extremely rare among "actual" GURPS players (as opposed to "expert, technical-minded GMs" who populate this forum).

Perhaps you are more or less right here, ok, but I think Icelander isn't offending no one just being confident with his own skills.

Originally Posted by Lupo

I really hope that SJG people don't take into account "advices" like yours about how GURPS should be, or the game will soon lose its (already small) niche of players, becoming an overcomplicated, useless world- and power-building tools for bored GMs...

I can understand your point, but I feel GURPS Powers as a thrilling resource for handling so much gamemastering creative power ;)

Originally Posted by KDLadage

But, if GURPS has a flaw (and it does, I assure you) then one of the bigger ones when it comes to new players is the sheer volume of the number of skills in the game.

I don't see that as a flaw in any way. It would be as saying high-end software or technology as Maya Unlimited or 3dStudio Max have the same "flaw", while other free, low-end and weak 3d apps don't (Sketchup, Blender, etc).

And really I believe in this comparison: GURPS is a high-end roleplaying system, a professional tool. And that, as everything, comes with some requeriments.

If you want cool results, prepare yourself for attaining the mastery of the right tools.

However, some predesigned "macros" can make working with it easier for certain persons. Dungeon Fantasy can be regarded a bit in this perspective, but I think it is much more than only that.

Anyway, anyone can cut features and system complexity saving really cool features for later if he lacks of time for handling a certain ammount of them. I regard GURPS as intuitive as the 3ª edition was. Skills can be detailed, Combat be detailed too, Hazards, Equipment, Fright or Awe Checks... but I want to be able to tap in that granularity for enhancing my games and designs. And this system allows to do it.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

I can understand your point, but I feel GURPS Powers as a thrilling resource for handling so much gamemastering creative power ;)

I liked GURPS Powers! But I am happy that all other GURPS books focus more on roleplaying and worldbuilding, and less in mechanical details.

If GURPS Martial arts contained only Powers-like abilities, THAT would be a real disappointment. If GURPS Martial art doesn't contain that particular exotic technique or style, well who cares, you can't find everything in a book...

Originally Posted by demonsbane

And really I believe in this comparison: GURPS is a high-end roleplaying system, a professional tool. And that, as everything, comes with some requeriments.

If you want cool results, prepare yourself for attaining the mastery of the right tools.

I don't think GURPS is so difficult compared to other games. I think it's a very good tool also because it's an intuitive, streamlined system (with many details available).

Most of all, I really don't think that if GURPS was more complex or detailed, it would be a better tool. Not at all! We are already on the edge of "overdetailed", and what GURPS needs are worldbooks.

It's so easier to make up a more-or-less balanced cost and effects for Meteor Swarm, than to create a fictional civilization or explore an existing one...

Skills can be detailed, Combat be detailed too, Hazards, Equipment, Fright or Awe Checks... but I want to be able to tap in that granularity for enhancing my games and designs. And this system allows to do it.

I like that to, don't you feel enough able to do that, given all existing GURPS rules and mechanics? You really want more?

[dravenloft]

w00t!!!! Loving the DF series! Downloaded #3 w/in 19min of its release!
Have now the tools I need to truly enjoy the dungeon Z is planning. I shall be a Nymph Swashbuckler/<something magical>.

And this has much help potential for getting some characters that I like that are unfun for being AD&D characters and me no likey AD&D combat, so it's convertin' time!!

Ok, random excitement partially caused by sugar rush ended. I now return you to regularly scheduled thread.

Many praises to almighty Kromm for it's writing and the mighty SJ for its publication.

[Captain-Captain]

Need to get a new pack of paper...


Grumble. Neat trick. The Scout-Swashbuckler and the Swashbuckler-Scout are quite different. ;)

[Gauthic]

Again SJGames, thank you for another amazing release! :)

[Gudiomen]

I'm personaly hoping that Sean will get his cinematic uber-fantasy improv. kicks out of DF and treat us to some more detail and crunchy bits in books like Thaumatology, Low-Tech (or whoever's writing them...).

Personaly I don't think I'm getting these, precisley because I don't need it. Got a good kick out of DF1 though, specially the Power Investure spell examples (for Druids and Clerics) and the equipment customization options.

There's a big market and low cost to translate these DF books to portuguese though... if only you guys get Basic through Devir (ok... can I rant about it now? Or are they still having trouble?).

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

... if only you guys get Basic through Devir (ok... can I rant about it now? Or are they still having trouble?).

Sure, but it would be better to direct your rants at folks who can actually do something about it -- i.e. Devir themselves.

[camazotz]

I was waffling on starting a Dungeon Fantasy campaign, even with the awesomeness of DF1 and DF2, but DF3's surprise visit has pushed me over; I will begin prepping a campaign and seeking out players in the Albuquerque area promptly!

I gather some people thought this supplement wasn't too useful (cough >Icelander< cough) but it was pretty much everything I wanted that was missing from DF1 and 2......booya! I especially love Kromm's take on dungeon fantasy (like the Dark Ones, for example...blending Dark Elves with Cthulhoid thingies, genius!)

Anyway...

[Highland_Piper]

What next? Honestly you could go on with this series for quite some time!

Dungeon Monsters
Traps and Treasures
Dungeon Societies
Dungeon Design

Slightly off topic but I'd like to see some GURPS Adventure series like this. Right now I just get the Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics and then convert them to GURPS.