Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by mjj1976

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but I think you misunderstood my question. I'm objecting to the post about a cat toying with a mouse, and asking why Callous would even have an effect between different species. Just because predators don't care if their food is pretty or charming doesn't automatically make them Callous. I'm not saying that predators can't be Callous with their own kind, just that the cat/mouse example doesn't seem like a legitimate test for it.

It's not that they don't care if it is pretty or charming, they don't care if it suffers. Horribly. Due to the cat slowly torturing it to death. This indicates a particular lack of empathy for other living things that is not found in, for example, most emotionally healthy people. Yeah, we kill things and eat them, or even kill things and don't eat them, but when we are personally involved in the killing we usually try to make it as quick and painless as possible. Except for those of us with Callous (don't care) or Sadism (enjoy it).

Of course, you can check how cats treat others of their own kind. Contrary to common myths they do have social hierarchies, and along with this comes means of social signaling and establishing dominance in non-violent ways (which occasionally break down, leading to yowling cat-fights). From my observations, cats may show affection and concern for certain favored individuals, but do seem callous towards anyone they do not know or don't particularly care about. Then there are well documented behavioral traits such as toms practicing mass infanticide of kittens that are not their own.

Besides, haven't you ever petted a cat that responds by kneading your inadequately protected legs with its sharp claws?

In any event, the description of Callous on pg. B125 just seems to suit cats. Yes, I own cats, I love my cats, I just have no illusions that they actually care if I suffer or am in pain.

Luke

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Of course, you can check how cats treat others of their own kind. Contrary to common myths they do have social hierarchies, and along with this comes means of social signaling and establishing dominance in non-violent ways (which occasionally break down, leading to yowling cat-fights). From my observations, cats may show affection and concern for certain favored individuals, but do seem callous towards anyone they do not know or don't particularly care about. Then there are well documented behavioral traits such as toms practicing mass infanticide of kittens that are not their own.

Some (usually very dominant) females will do this too, if the local feline population is very dense.

In any event, the description of Callous on pg. B125 just seems to suit cats. Yes, I own cats, I love my cats, I just have no illusions that they actually care if I suffer or am in pain.

I've known the very rare cat that did seem to care. One would curl up beside ill people and purr for them, when normally she was not a very cuddling cost of cat. OTOH, most just get annoyed because sick people are even worse house slaves than healthy ones.

[mjj1976]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

It's not that they don't care if it is pretty or charming, they don't care if it suffers. Horribly. Due to the cat slowly torturing it to death. This indicates a particular lack of empathy for other living things that is not found in, for example, most emotionally healthy people. Yeah, we kill things and eat them, or even kill things and don't eat them, but when we are personally involved in the killing we usually try to make it as quick and painless as possible. Except for those of us with Callous (don't care) or Sadism (enjoy it).

Whether or not cats possess Callous is entirely beside my point. Predators simply don't care about being cruel to their prey, not because they can't empathize, but because they don't realize it's a being like them. All they see is a walking meal, and in some cases a puzzle that wiggles and squeaks as it's being softened up.

I don't think it's appropriate to apply Callous to inter-species relations if the brains involved aren't capable of contemplating such things in the first place. If you do, then you'll have to make dogs Chummy. And then it raises the question of why animals -- the ones that you've made capable of empathizing like humans -- aren't also affected by inter-species Appearance and Charisma.

P.S.: I think you're overly generous in your assessment of people's empathy. Just go to an old farm where the cat population has to be thinned, or any chicken preparation facility to see the multitude of disgusting games that ordinary folks come up with to amuse themselves -- well-rounded family men and professionals, every one.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by mjj1976

Whether or not cats possess Callous is entirely beside my point. Predators simply don't care about being cruel to their prey, not because they can't empathize, but because they don't realize it's a being like them. All they see is a walking meal, and in some cases a puzzle that wiggles and squeaks as it's being softened up.

I don't think it's appropriate to apply Callous to inter-species relations if the brains involved aren't capable of contemplating such things in the first place. If you do, then you'll have to make dogs Chummy.

It does sound like you're questioning whether cats (or animals in general) can have Callous. As a behavioral characteristic specific to a species, I don't have a problem with assigning it as a placeholder Quirk, at least. Your first paragraph (second sentence on) looks a great deal like the text description of Callous, in fact.

Chummy might be a candidate as a 'placeholder' also, for some animals... dunno *shrug*

[roguebfl]

umm isn't the fur trait missing....

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by mjj1976

I don't think it's appropriate to apply Callous to inter-species relations if the brains involved aren't capable of contemplating such things in the first place.

If the brains aren't capable of contemplating such things, they have Low Empathy. That's pretty much the basics of Low Empathy right there.

Originally Posted by mjj1976

If you do, then you'll have to make dogs Chummy.

I do (at least for dogs = wolves, domestic dogs, dholes, and cape hunting dogs. Jackals, coyotes, foxes, and the like don't get this). And sense of duty (pack) as well. Personally, I think it makes the templates a lot more interesting to add in some psychological "color" - different types of animals really do have interesting species specific behaviors and noting these on the templates can help people role-play them.

Originally Posted by mjj1976

And then it raises the question of why animals -- the ones that you've made capable of empathizing like humans -- aren't also affected by inter-species Appearance and Charisma.

Appearance - why would they be? For most animals, attractiveness is based more on having the proper pheromones than what you look like. It is only us highly visually oriented species that are likely to pay a lot of attention of symmetric features and blemish-free skin.

Charisma - being able to communicate effectively and sway people to your ideas is not much use on things that don't think symbolically and cannot conceptualize the ideas you are trying to get across.

Luke

[kmunoz]

Originally Posted by mjj1976

I don't think it's appropriate to apply Callous to inter-species relations if the brains involved aren't capable of contemplating such things in the first place. If you do, then you'll have to make dogs Chummy.

Dogs ARE Chummy, according to the RAW. Look at the Large Guard Dog stats.

[Der Wanderer]

OK, I think the Vibration Sense is overkill to represent whiskers, we should not forget that whiskers are nothing else than hairs with a sensory root that detects when the whiskers move... so here is my take on Whiskers (There are several ideas what whiskers are good for and probably not all are true for all animals having whiskers):

An animal with whiskers always knows if it can squeeze though an opening.
Feature (Never gets stuck in an opening because it always knows whether it will fit through or not) [0]

The whiskers may help animals to determin windspeed, and thereby helping to calculate the origin of a scent...
Perk (+2 to smelling, but only to determine the location of the source) [1]

The whiskers guide the animals along walls (they predict the curvature so they can actually follow a wall pretty fast). This is probably only true for animals with relatively long whiskers compared to their body size (e.g. rats). Humans can theoretically do this too, using their hands... BUT: (1) Are too much afraid to run into something (2) Are big and cannot break as fast as a rat can. (3) cannot automatically calculate the curvature of the wall and therefore not predict well how the wall continues)
Perk (Can walk at half speed along a wall in the dark, whitout crashing into an object) [1]

Whiskering: Some animals can move their whiskers actively (e.g. rats) while others cant (e.g. cats) and feel up shapes. Basically it does what humans do with hands for animals withouth Fine Manipulaters.
Perk (Can determine shape of objects by whiskering) [1]
These Animals might even qualify for Sensitive Touch (However they cant feel residual heat, hairs are dead but shape, texture, vibrations)

This is pretty much what scientist believe the whiskers can do. Because the whisker array in all animal is basically the same (though not all can actively move them (whiskering) and not all have the same length probortional to body size) the theory is that they share one basic function (A week ago I was at a talk by a leading expert on this field and her assuption was that the sensing of wind is the common function since all animals with whiskers also have excelent sense of smell) and some have extended functions...

Powering Up Whiskers
Well give them Vibration Sense so they can actually sense at range (something that is not belived to be within the scope of whiskers)