Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy

[Nosforontu]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Note also that shameless spell abuse is standard dungeon fantasy. I distinctly remember schemes to get stupidly rich using only second-level spells in AD&D.

In fact I would almost say that you are going against standard genre expectations if your wizard didnt know how to become fabulously wealthy with a handful of spells, although trying to get points for a gm pact to obey that particular genre conviction might be a bit difficult ;).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

In fact I would almost say that you are going against standard genre expectations if your wizard didnt know how to become fabulously wealthy with a handful of spells, although trying to get points for a gm pact to obey that particular genre conviction might be a bit difficult ;).

Nah, you get points for it. You don't use those spells to get stupidly rich, and the GM doesn't require you to buy Wealth, so in effect you're getting points equal to the cost of the Wealth you would otherwise have.

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Note also that shameless spell abuse is standard dungeon fantasy. I distinctly remember schemes to get stupidly rich using only second-level spells in AD&D.

The Continual Flashlight... made it a staple of our merchantile for adventurers. Made millions in Waterdeep (right outside the Pit tavern) and Cormyr.

[Harald387]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Note also that shameless spell abuse is standard dungeon fantasy. I distinctly remember schemes to get stupidly rich using only second-level spells in AD&D.

My issue is more this: In a world where 'Inspired Creation' is common - and since the Wizard template includes an option for Wild Talent (magic), it can't be that rare - why are Very Fine swords expensive at all? Should a weapon created with the spell only exist for a day, even though the spell didn't create the item?

Your point is taken about the lack of 'Create' in the names of other spells mentioned, but if some spells will be explicitly banned in the name of preserving the world's economy, I think it's beneficial to examine the rest of Magic in the same light.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Harald387

My issue is more this: In a world where 'Inspired Creation' is common - and since the Wizard template includes an option for Wild Talent (magic), it can't be that rare - why are Very Fine swords expensive at all? Should a weapon created with the spell only exist for a day, even though the spell didn't create the item?

Your point is taken about the lack of 'Create' in the names of other spells mentioned, but if some spells will be explicitly banned in the name of preserving the world's economy, I think it's beneficial to examine the rest of Magic in the same light.

I don't think many people who play cliche dungeon fantasy worry about the economy. In D&D I'd describe game world as "NPCs obeying some unwritten principles that keep the economy working and the PCs screwing everything up to the DM's frustration."
I particularly like the note on Magic about plausability, consistency and whatnot. In order for the economy to work right the GM and the players will need at least a bit of compromise.
Any setting that has common magic will not work like our world (medieval or not) by a long shot. It's not just the create spells, you can screw it up in several other ways.
If you devise wave after wave of countermeasures, you end up with a setting much like D&D's settings: inconsistent and unbelievable... OR teaming with magic, flying elevators and what have you...

Edit: Certainly there's a "middle-ground" between no magic and everyday magic. But if you look at it, the assumption that society and economy are unchanged works on the lower end of the magic level. With no magic you have medieval society, with a bit of magic you're already moving away from it. And with the ammount of magic you see in most fantasy games you'll need to vigorously chop of your disbelief and throw it in the flames... "suspension" doesn't even begin to cut it...

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

I don't think many people who play cliche dungeon fantasy worry about the economy. In D&D I'd describe game world as "NPCs obeying some unwritten principles that keep the economy working and the PCs screwing everything up to the DM's frustration."
I particularly like the note on Magic about plausability, consistency and whatnot. In order for the economy to work right the GM and the players will need at least a bit of compromise.

That still doesn't explain why Very Fine weapons, in DUNGEON FANTASY, which assumes a fair amount of magic, are still 9x as expensive as regular ones. Between the ease of magical healing and the reliability of this spell, I would expect them to be cranked out relatively easily.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Bruno

That still doesn't explain why Very Fine weapons, in DUNGEON FANTASY, which assumes a fair amount of magic, are still 9x as expensive as regular ones. Between the ease of magical healing and the reliability of this spell, I would expect them to be cranked out relatively easily.

Sorry, it wasn't meant to explain. It was a statement more like "dungeon fantasy normaly doesn't explain stuff, it has inconsistent settings that survive only due to oversight from GMs and players".
I don't find it any more mind-boggling than having a dragon inside a dungeon. What the hell's he eating? Why is there an orc army in there? Where do they get their food from? How are all these mutualy genocidal races living next to each other in some surreal underground hotel, that has weird and incompatible guests in each room?
The heroes themselves are 1-in-a-million. Many times they are themselves inconsistent... the priest of the life godess that doesn't have any trouble killing hundreds of life forms.

My point is that if you start picking on specific details of dungeon fantasy and trying to make it more believable you'll end up with one of two things...
1) a less fantastic, more believable setting that isn't dungeon fantasy
2) an internaly confuse setting with tons of custom rules to "make it work" and rationalizations of why it works the way it does...

I'm a big fan of the first, that's why I don't generaly play classic DF... but occasionaly I do play it, and when I do I've already commited to ignore the settings inconsistencies and loopholes, and don't expect it to be reasonable.

So the answer to "Why isn't it cheaper." would be "Just because!", much like a lot of games with trading in them have fixed prices where you can run from A to B and make a profit without altering market value, supply or demand.

Be that as it may, if you want to fix it... you'll either have to fix the magic system, tailoring it to your needs (that's a nice first step you took here, but you'll need a LOT more work, and players might surprise you anyhow), or you're going to have to adapt the economics to fit the settings mechanics. Wich means massive inflation, devalue of several items that can be created from magic and derived therefrom. Unemployment, guild revolt against mages at first, and then monopoly of pretty much every craft by them. Technological (or Thaumatological) modification of tools, gear, transportation, housing, etc... with magic that common, you'll need legislation for it, it pays off to create zero-mana prisons, high and very-high mana niches are mapped out and created if possible (wich only increases the ammount of change going on)... sumarizing: you get a very complex and chaotica "Magic Revolution".

[alaph]

Suspension of Disbelief, this is the SoD we venture on many of our games. Once you start rationalizing most Fantasy or Sci-Fi genre conventions the things start to fall apart rather quickly.

Like why don't the mages all get together and take over the world? I mean really.

This happens n Sci-fi too. I'm working up the History for my cyberpunk game and I keep trying to plan out EVERY DETAIL logically but at the end of the day if I don't want to go crazy I have to just make some leaps without the logic. Same here....Fine Swords are expensive, even though logically they should be cheap as dirt, it doesn't make sense nor does it need to. If your players are that jaded then maybe they need a good does of GURPS: Horribly Realistic Medieval Europe, free plague with every new 25 point character.

[alaph]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

STUFF

This is what I was saying, just with more words ;)

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Note also that shameless spell abuse is standard dungeon fantasy. I distinctly remember schemes to get stupidly rich using only second-level spells in AD&D.

Is this the scheme to threaten rich people with casting Melf's Acid Arrow at their genitals unless they paid up in cold, hard cash?

Or did I just have slightly more evil get-rich-quick schemers in my gaming group?