How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards

[chandley]

Originally Posted by B9anders

I think this may be a bit too literal an approach. Although a pure dungeon crawl campaign would be as you describe, a campaign with occasional dungeon crawl adventures but also including other adventure styles would not.

Indeed, but as soon as you break the assumptions of a pure dungeon crawl campaign, your back into a more typical GURPS system, and your not really doing something like D&D or Hackmaster. Hell, you might have characters who have skills like Politics or Blacksmithing and actually USE them!

The advantage of GURPS is that you can have a Dungeon Fantasy character and then even have a conversation about things like Status, Wealth, and Jobs. But if you start introducing a world out side of the dungeon and the town where you sell that dungeons loot, your pretty far out of a Dungeon Fantasy game... Which means you dont need a Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards, you need to look up Gurps: Fantasy and Banestorm.

Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards really would be a list of Cool Stuff. Thats the whole point after all. If you need a reminder, dig up your D&D 3.5 DMG. There are between 5 and 11 pages on the world outside of the dungeon, depending on whether you count a section on _randomly generating a town/city_. There are 77 pages of loot and loot rules. In a 320 page book. The section on player wealth details how much cash they should have, max, per level to not be unbalanced.

You can have dungeon adventures in a normal Gurps Fantasy campaign. No argument here. But worrying about wealth levels in a Dungeon Fantasy campaign is missing the point.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by chandley

You can have dungeon adventures in a normal Gurps Fantasy campaign. No argument here. But worrying about wealth levels in a Dungeon Fantasy campaign is missing the point.

Actually not, because back in the day the point of Dungeon crawling was to get the loot so you can conquer a piece of land and use your loot to build a castle.
Having wealth would just help that process.

Wealth levels would not be a disincentive to dungeon crawling because it is far quicker to get your magic items by looting then paying someone and wait all that time.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

Actually not, because back in the day the point of Dungeon crawling was to get the loot so you can conquer a piece of land and use your loot to build a castle.

Yep, yep, agreed.

Having wealth would just help that process.

Oh, your looking to CHEAT! Why didnt you just say so?

If the point is to get enough loot to build a castle, and loot is properly torn from the dismembered talons of your foes, having a thing that, for mere character points, allows you to build that castle seems counter to the spirit of the genre.

But I argue the point to vehemently I think. There are shades and gradations here. The continuum from Hackmaster through D&D to Gurps:Fantasy is unbroken. I just like my Dungeon Fantasy (chocolate) without any of your icky RPG imports from classic Gurps (peanut butter).

Is all Im saying.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by chandley

I just like my Dungeon Fantasy (chocolate) without any of your icky RPG imports from classic Gurps (peanut butter).

Is all Im saying.

Of course. And that is a matter of taste, IMHO. You can be so much black & white about DF as you like.

But because this is all GURPS (Dungeon Fantasy, Fantasy, Cliffhangers, Bio-Tech, Martial Arts, Banestorm, Myth, Infinite Worlds, Dragons...), there is no need to be really "confined" to a particular "genre" (with its inherent limitations); instead we can draw benefits from any source for implementation to our own game style. No need to say, I regard DF as a great and crunchy complement to the sections in 4e Fantasy covering the Dungeons theme:

Originally Posted by whswhs

To be strictly accurate, Fantasy does *mention* the dungeon fantasy approach: Chapter 1 includes sword and sorcery as one of the basic genres within fantasy, for example, and chapter 8 includes the dungeon crawl as the first scenario type in its scenario cookbook. I think it could be claimed that Fantasy does support the idea that dungeon fantasy is a legitimate subgenre within the larger genre. But, to be sure, it doesn't say very much about it.

Bill Stoddard

So Dungeon Fantasy easily demonstrates its potential for being wider in scope.

Originally Posted by B9anders

I think this may be a bit too literal an approach. Although a pure dungeon crawl campaign would be as you describe, a campaign with occasional dungeon crawl adventures but also including other adventure styles would not.

Originally Posted by robertsconley

Agreed I have ran my own fantasy campaign since 1987 using this style. Using Dungeon Fantasy is not an all or nothing affair. It does need some level of support which is why I am glad to see the DF PDFs released.

I agree.

Originally Posted by chandley

The advantage of GURPS is that you can have a Dungeon Fantasy character and then even have a conversation about things like Status, Wealth, and Jobs. But if you start introducing a world out side of the dungeon and the town where you sell that dungeons loot, your pretty far out of a Dungeon Fantasy game... Which means you dont need a Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards, you need to look up Gurps: Fantasy and Banestorm.

Hum, in these books (Fantasy, Banestorm) I don't find specific equipment I'm interested in, as cool dwarven axes or elven chain mails... That means if one wants that sort of fantasy equipment for his GURPS: Fantasy campaign, DF is a very valuable resource, and unique, without comparison in the entire GURPS line.

Why would be the point to keep it apart?

Originally Posted by chandley

You can have dungeon adventures in a normal Gurps Fantasy campaign. No argument here. But worrying about wealth levels in a Dungeon Fantasy campaign is missing the point.

If I have a bunch of characters suitable for "action fantasy" adventures, I can't see any problem if the same characters have a "third dimension" too (social) for roleplaying when the story demands a social setting. For instance.

Anyway, no real discussion here, only sharing viewpoints.

Cheers

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Not a list of treasure items but ways to reward players in a longer campaign.

Originally Posted by demonsbane

Hum, in these books (Fantasy, Banestorm) I don't find specific equipment I'm interested in, as cool dwarven axes or elven chain mails... That means if one wants that sort of fantasy equipment for his GURPS: Fantasy campaign, DF is a very valuable resource, and unique, without comparison in the entire GURPS line.

The original poster asked for a Dungeon Fantasy entry that expanded DF into realms already (I believe) covered by Gurps: Fantasy and Banestorm (and heck, Basic Set). Demonsbane asks for something that I think fits DF quite well, but was explicitly denied by Taliesin; A list of cool treasure seems a veritable requirement for the DF line.

You could use said list in a more well rounded Gurps campaign. But to suggest that the DF line of PDFs should cover ground involving social roles and patents of nobility strays to far from the genre.

DF: Treasure, or DF:Phat Lewt, or what have you would be well served by lots of tables and descriptions, but also by discussion on how to toss things like the advantages Wealth, Status, and Rank, to better focus on the hack and the slash.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by chandley

You could use said list in a more well rounded Gurps campaign. But to suggest that the DF line of PDFs should cover ground involving social roles and patents of nobility strays to far from the genre.

I agree with that, but this is still mostly a subject full of nuances for me. I follow quoting Taliesin:

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Not a list of treasure items but ways to reward players in a longer campaign. Things like animal companions for the scout. Patents of nobility with a fife attached for the knight. Social rank in the wizard's or thieves guild. Special divine or arcane powers that can only be "unlocked" by using character points earned during play.
Just a bunch of cool stuff instead of players pushing their stats and skills ever and ever upward.
And a chapter of cool magic doodads wouldn't go amiss, neither.

And... I agree with this list of ideas, too.

That is because I'm not afraid of nobiliary titles and such entering in DF, if they are going to be useful in Dungeon Fantasy games. With that condition, linking some social advantages in the way described by Robert S Conley doesn't seem inappropriate for me:

Originally Posted by robertsconley

Actually not, because back in the day the point of Dungeon crawling was to get the loot so you can conquer a piece of land and use your loot to build a castle.
Having wealth would just help that process.

Wealth levels would not be a disincentive to dungeon crawling because it is far quicker to get your magic items by looting then paying someone and wait all that time.

So, agreeing with DF pdfs should cover its own territory, it is possible to agree too with these suggestions.

I think the original poster' idea could be rescued thinking about DF handling such treasures-as-social advantages in its own way.

On the other hand, if the number of DF pdfs and themes developed in them is enough large, IMHO it is going to be harder and harder to sharply distinguish between Fantasy and Dungeon Fantasy, because one of the marks of the latter seems to be simplification. With enough development, Dungeon Fantasy has good chances of meeting with Fantasy.

Indeed, one of the points of my earlier post was the regard of DF genre as already contained in Fantasy.

Sorry! I can't make myself clearer, due my language limitations I guess.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

With enough development, Dungeon Fantasy has good chances of meeting with Fantasy.

Indeed, one of the points of my earlier post was the regard of DF genre as already contained in Fantasy.

Sorry! I can't make myself clearer, due my language limitations I guess.

You are actually very clear and you are bringing up a point I didn't consider. I never thought of the DF series as a simplified version of the game. I though of it as a product doing some of the GM's prep work for him. GURPS RAW is just too dang much too much for me.

I love the game to death but I'm no longer willing to put in hours of prep in order to GM a game. I work when I'm at work and if a game starts to seem like work to me I drop it and go play WoW instead. DF1&2 did enough of the work for me that I was able to run several really fun games with it while only needing a few minutes to prep old D&D modules beforehand. I can see many more weeks of fun ahead for us without a problem. But looking ahead I see the players getting all of the skills from their templates and then saying, "what now?" My request is for gee wiz cool things for the players to lust after - be it a really cool magic item, and unique advantage, or even a spell that isn't in the Magic book. I can (and do) make this stuff up myself all the time but the players tend to be a lot happier if it's "official".

Plus Dr Kromm (all hail King Kromm) comes up with better stuff than I do "I'm a trained professional kids. Don't try this stuff at home" and I would love to see what his twisted mind comes up with. In fact I'm willing to pay for the privilege.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Plus Dr Kromm (all hail King Kromm) comes up with better stuff than I do "I'm a trained professional kids. Don't try this stuff at home" and I would love to see what his twisted mind comes up with. In fact I'm willing to pay for the privilege.

That is... I acknowledge that, too.

Indeed I agree with all your points, so let me subscribe them.

PS: anyone wants to write a DF 2: Dungeons review? Here is the one about DF 1: Adventurers.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

That is... I acknowledge that, too.

Indeed I agree with all your points, so let me subscribe them.

PS: anyone wants to write a DF 2: Dungeons review? Here is the one about DF 1: Adventurers.

Ha! I just blundered back into this thread to discover this! I'm the one that wrote that review. Now I'm a little sorry, as I spent a lot of time complaining about what wasn't in DF1 and not enough time talking about all the cool stuff that is in there.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Ha! I just blundered back into this thread to discover this! I'm the one that wrote that review.

I knew that ;-)

Indeed I was trying to indirectly encourage you (or any other) for doing a second review of DF 2!

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Now I'm a little sorry, as I spent a lot of time complaining about what wasn't in DF1 and not enough time talking about all the cool stuff that is in there.

I understand that. But still, there was some point in your complains, IMO.

I think DF 3: The Next Level will cover these points you felt were lacking in Adventurers, and more.

I'm eagerly waiting for it for having in my hands a more complete Dungeon Fantasy product, as I like to call it: Kromm's baseline for future DF pdfs written for other authors to come in the case of Kromm can't keep working in this line anymore {pain!}.