GURPS Dragons

[RafaelLVX]

That's much less difference, which is a sign of improvement. :)

[Ed the Coastie]

Originally Posted by evilRafael

My personal mythological prejudices are really inconsistent with the idea of a "monstrous dragon" (Fantasy Bestiary p.84, size 14+) having ST "70+" and an elephant (Bestiary p.15, size 10+) having ST "250-300". Before anyone points out the dragon is much lighter in comparison with the elephant, let me express that that also makes little sense to me. Of course no one has ever seen a live dragon, but I was really pursuing a more fantastic dragon. No matter what, these books show an elephant must be much more frightening than an ancient dragon.

Different GMs have different ideas as to what makes sense to them. The classic fire-breathing dragon of fantasy has never appealed to me, even in games such as D&D such an image is considered to be the norm. In most of my own games in which they appear, dragons are little more than large, semi-intelligent pterodactyloids possessed of the capability to spit paralytic venom and with an affinity for shiny objects.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by evilRafael

That's much less difference, which is a sign of improvement. :)

Not really, The elephants BL is more than twice that of the dragon. THe problem is 3ed was the linear strength system.
30 st is a basic lift of 180
45 st is a basic lift of 405.

The elephant is still massively stronger than the dragon. But if that bothers you change it. Of course you will splat any human in one hit.

[gikiski]

It's also pretty good for comparing 3rd ed. to 4th ed. in one book, especially if you are familiar with 3rd ed. already.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by evilRafael

It's damn expensive :) but I'm really interested.

Does anyone who has the book know if these dragons are stronger than the usual dragon from GURPS Fantasy 3rd ed? Fantasy dragons are weaker than an elephant, which to me is just plain stupid.

Note that the Fantasy dragons that are weaker than an elephant are also TINIER than an elephant. They're about the size of a big horse.

But yes, Dragons does have templates for big dragons.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Note that the Fantasy dragons that are weaker than an elephant are also TINIER than an elephant. They're about the size of a big horse.

Elephants ST 45; Weight 12,000+ lbs, SM +3 (10 Hexes).
Monstrous Dragon ST 30; Weight 3,000+ lbs, SM +5 (15+ Hexes). I assume some of this is wings, but still.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Elephants ST 45; Weight 12,000+ lbs, SM +3 (10 Hexes).
Monstrous Dragon ST 30; Weight 3,000+ lbs, SM +5 (15+ Hexes). I assume some of this is wings, but still.

It sounds like MOST of that is neck and tail. Ignore the hexes, it's only 3000 lbs. (which, on retrospect, is big even for a clydesdale, but not terribly big)

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

However, the whole point of the book was to address and demonstrate the sheer range of possibilities for things called "dragons", from cute critters that sit on your shoulder up to gods of nature.

And IMHO it was successful. Let me give thanks to you for that excellent and much needed work!

Originally Posted by evilRafael

(...) but I was really pursuing a more fantastic dragon. No matter what, these books show an elephant must be much more frightening than an ancient dragon. :)

Hey, you are looking for a gygaxian Great Wyrm Red Dragon! ;-)

Thinking about this, Babylonic Tiamat definitely provided a strong inspiration for D&D dragons, and in line with that, 4e Fantasy provides a frigthening and awesome 350 ST example of Her (all hail Takhisis!), under Primordial Entities (p. 50).

Anyway, 3/4e Dragons is indeed a cool "GURPS Draconomicon ", being very useful and inspirational, too. I can't wait to combine part of it with Dungeon Fantasy inside a serious fantasy campaign.

A point to remark here is: really fantastic and awesome monsters, fall very well under the label of Primordial Entities.

Dungeons & Dragons rarely differenciated between regular dungeon crawling Fire Giants and Fire Giants of mythological scale being a menace to the gods and the cosmos. The same with cool dragons.

However, the last WoTC third edition Deities and Demigods shows "regular" Monster Manual's Nordic Giants tweaked for being a menace to the gods, and they are statted with some divine rank...

[Ragabash Moon]

Yeah, and even a "Gygaxian" dragon in D&D isn't THAT much more powerful than a human, in the same scale as GURPS. 18 STR for a human, 30 STR for a dragon in D&D, that's pretty much not much different than a 20 ST human and a 35 ST dragon in GURPS. Even if you drop that to "averages" then your 10 STR or 10 ST still is on the same scale to the dragon in either game. Both games have a very similar stat averages and maximums.

EDIT: Also, if you compare D&D's writeup of Tiamat, the actual GODDESS of Dragons version, GURPS Fantasy's version would have the D&D version as an appetizer.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by evilRafael

It's damn expensive :) but I'm really interested.

Does anyone who has the book know if these dragons are stronger than the usual dragon from GURPS Fantasy 3rd ed? Fantasy dragons are weaker than an elephant, which to me is just plain stupid.

These days, elephants should be designed with Lifting Strength.