So...GURPS D&D?

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Pmandrekar

Well, sure. My use of 'original', I had meant to use as the original assumptions behind the existing ruleset. Certainly if you go back to the origins of D&D, it is in a wargame. But D&D 3.5, for example, was designed to be a bit closer to Dungeon Fantasy than to Medieval Fantasy.

Ok, makes sense now.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Pmandrekar

Well, sure. My use of 'original', I had meant to use as the original assumptions behind the existing ruleset. Certainly if you go back to the origins of D&D, it is in a wargame. But D&D 3.5, for example, was designed to be a bit closer to Dungeon Fantasy than to Medieval Fantasy.

-P.

A very good case can be made that D&D and fantasy are two completely different genres, same as espionage novels and space opera novels.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by nmoody

I'm not sold on the GURPS Dungeons products. I mean, I keep hearing how it pushes the rules to show what can be done, but is it really pushing the rules to turn GURPS into D&D?

Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong, but this is one product (or series of products) that doesn't interest me.

But...convince me. Is there anything useful to running a Banestorm game in these pdfs?

The point of Dungeon Fantasy isn't to turn the game into D&D. The point is that there's a popular gaming subgenre that, in GURPS, requires you to plough through a 576-page set of generic core rules (the Basic Set) to find gear and applicable options, plus a 240-page book on magic (Magic), while borrowing elements from a 240-page genre guide (Fantasy), a 240-page book on powers (Powers), and a 256-page Fechtbuch (Martial Arts). What Dungeon Fantasy does is boil down the really vital elements of all this stuff to a few 32-page PDFs that reduce your overhead to just the Basic Set and Magic, and that minimize your page-flipping and maximize your play:preparation ratio when using those tomes.

It sounds like your real criticism is "I don't run dungeon fantasy games." If you're not into the subgenre, it's probable that you won't find much use for a game aid-cum-genre guide intended for it. Even so, you might find DF: Dungeons of value, since it includes a lot of simplifications of athletic feats, shopping for gear, traps, travel, and hundreds of other tasks encountered in nearly every action-adventure subgenre. It would probably be of use in a 1930s pulp campaign or any other campaign where the heroes travel, explore dark places, and run into foes. You probably won't find DF: Adventurers useful . . . so it goes.

[nmoody]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The point of Dungeon Fantasy isn't to turn the game into D&D. The point is that there's a popular gaming subgenre that, in GURPS, requires you to plough through a 576-page set of generic core rules (the Basic Set) to find gear and applicable options, plus a 240-page book on magic (Magic), while borrowing elements from a 240-page genre guide (Fantasy), a 240-page book on powers (Powers), and a 256-page Fechtbuch (Martial Arts). What Dungeon Fantasy does is boil down the really vital elements of all this stuff to a few 32-page PDFs that reduce your overhead to just the Basic Set and Magic, and that minimize your page-flipping and maximize your play:preparation ratio when using those tomes.

It sounds like your real criticism is "I don't run dungeon fantasy games." If you're not into the subgenre, it's probable that you won't find much use for a game aid-cum-genre guide intended for it. Even so, you might find DF: Dungeons of value, since it includes a lot of simplifications of athletic feats, shopping for gear, traps, travel, and hundreds of other tasks encountered in nearly every action-adventure subgenre. It would probably be of use in a 1930s pulp campaign or any other campaign where the heroes travel, explore dark places, and run into foes. You probably won't find DF: Adventurers useful . . . so it goes.

So, DF:A is sort of a subgenre book? A step-down transformer, if you will, of the high-tension lines that are GURPS? Well, at that price-point, a whole series of books, not just DF, might be useful. Sort of a replacement for all the historicals and genre books of 3rd ed?

[Sadurian Mike]

Originally Posted by nmoody

So, DF:A is sort of a subgenre book? A step-down transformer, if you will, of the high-tension lines that are GURPS? Well, at that price-point, a whole series of books, not just DF, might be useful. Sort of a replacement for all the historicals and genre books of 3rd ed?

I see the Dungeon Fantasy line as genre supplements in the just the same way as GURPS: Steampunk, GURPS: Celtic Myth, GURPS: Traveller, or whathaveyou.

Dungeon Fantasy is such a well-established part of pseudo-fantasy gaming that it has taken on a life of its own, even the language has infiltrated other games (the 10' pole is a ridiculous thing to take down a cave system, yet it is fondly associated with dungeon crawling).

There are two options if you have a system which covers the same territory as "old school" D&D dungeon crawling; ignore it and blithely turn your back on its conventions, or embrace it as a ridiculously contrived yet lovable genre. SJG have done the latter, and all power to them.

[AmesJainchill]

Originally Posted by Sadurian Mike

(the 10' pole is a ridiculous thing to take down a cave system, yet it is fondly associated with dungeon crawling).

Fortunately, there are these things called Heward's Handy Haversacks that make such issues as size and weight go away very, very quickly, and IMO, very few Dungeon Fantasy dungeons are going to be natural caves--or at least the size and shape caves you see in the real world.

Besides, things often live in those caves--things of human size or larger, often have lived there for hundreds or thousands of years. Hell, the passages nearest the surface must be burgeoning with incomprehensible graffiti, messages, warnings, signposts and innumerable other markings carved into the rock walls, floors and ceilings.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Sadurian Mike

I see the Dungeon Fantasy line as genre supplements in the just the same way as GURPS: Steampunk, GURPS: Celtic Myth, GURPS: Traveller, or whathaveyou.

I disagree.

To write a historical supplement for GURPS, such as Steampunk or Celtic Myth, you need research skills.

To write a "rules distillation" of GURPS, such as Dungeon Fantasy, you need a very different skill set (which Kromm has, even if I'm quite unhappy with some of the decisions he made).

It really is a big mistake to not distinguish between historical supplements and rules distillations.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by nmoody

So, DF:A is sort of a subgenre book? A step-down transformer, if you will, of the high-tension lines that are GURPS? Well, at that price-point, a whole series of books, not just DF, might be useful. Sort of a replacement for all the historicals and genre books of 3rd ed?

Step-down transformations of GURPS, distilling the system into those elements that are relevant, cannot replace the 3rd Edition-style historical supplements, which were extremely research- and fact-intensive.

[umbros]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Even so, you might find DF: Dungeons of value, since it includes a lot of simplifications of athletic feats, shopping for gear, traps, travel, and hundreds of other tasks encountered in nearly every action-adventure subgenre. It would probably be of use in a 1930s pulp campaign or any other campaign where the heroes travel, explore dark places, and run into foes.

When I read DF: Dungeons I realized the simplifications would be just the thing for my GM style. In fact I was already using similar houserules, for things like kicking down doors, falling damage etc. in all genres that I run. (Mostly "Action" of some type: Swashbucklers, Cliffhangers, Traveller, StarWars, Fantasy.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The point of Dungeon Fantasy isn't to turn the game into D&D. The point is that there's a popular gaming subgenre that, in GURPS, requires you to plough through a 576-page set of generic core rules (the Basic Set) to find gear and applicable options, plus a 240-page book on magic (Magic), while borrowing elements from a 240-page genre guide (Fantasy), a 240-page book on powers (Powers), and a 256-page Fechtbuch (Martial Arts). What Dungeon Fantasy does is boil down the really vital elements of all this stuff to a few 32-page PDFs that reduce your overhead to just the Basic Set and Magic, and that minimize your page-flipping and maximize your play:preparation ratio when using those tomes.

Sure, but the two Dungeon Fantasy books don't replace Magic in any way, or even the pertient parts of Martial Arts.

I'd much have preferred to see a version of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy that did away with spells, and handled everything with Advantages. Even if it meant that the core book would be 64 pages instead of 32 pages, and cost 40%-60% more.

GURPS already has Healing, and Speak With Animals/Plants as ready-to-use advantages, so with some extra work put into it, you could have built ready-to-use advantage versions of Offensive Fire Magic, Fire Shield, Lightning Bolt, Invisibility, Illusions and so forth, and of course also pointed out the most obvious enhancers for Healing (such as Ranged, and Accurate to give a bonus to the roll).

That would have made it possible to run Dungeon Fantasy campaigns without needing to own GURPS Magic or even needing to reference the few spells that are in the GURPS core books.

And it would also have changed the dynamic of the game somewhat, I think, even of ultimately most instances of magic use would still cost FPs and therefore be largely similar to how spells are used and not used.


As for Martial Arts, re-printing the 2-3 most crucial pages of Techniques would do the trick (at least you did reprint the archery advantage, but that's not enough).


Likewise, I'm very disappointed to see that there aren't any pre-built advantages for Monks and Bards; instead, players must build them themselves, then do the arithmetic, and then submit the final advantage builds to the GM to see if he approves them.

In the end, such pre-built advantages can be much more atmospheric and stylish and flavourful and cool, than the usually very basic and frill-less ones that most players will build.


Oh, and by the way, where are the "racial" templates? And optional "racial" advantages? GURPS Dungeon Fantasy badly needs a splatbook.

(Also include "Bane"-type weapons in the splatbook. They're very much a part of the dungeon fantasy genre, and IIRC they exist in GURPS Magic as Enchantments already, so leaving them out of the DF core looks strange.)