Judo Question

[Daverius]

It says under the skills section for Judo that if you successfully parry with your judo skill, then on your next turn if your attacker is within one yard you can make an attack using your judo skill, they can use any active defense they wish, but if you succeed and they fail to block you can throw them.

I had few questions:

1) Shouldn't there be a quick contest?
2) What happens if the attacker is larger than you? Like a giant?

I was thinking of putting a house rule in my gurps game that calls for a quick contest, similar to the takedown under actions after grappling. The differences between a judo throw and a take down is that the thrown player has to make a health roll in order to not be stunned. Additionally, the judo fighter can attempt a throw after a successful parry.

[jspade]

Originally Posted by Daverius

1) Shouldn't there be a quick contest?

Why? You already have an attack/defend sequence.

Originally Posted by Daverius

2) What happens if the attacker is larger than you? Like a giant?

I laugh at the attacker for letting you get so close and losing the advantage of his greater reach. Seriously, I don't know of any rule governing this, but I don't have Basic Set with me.

[giganerds]

Originally Posted by Daverius

...

1) Shouldn't there be a quick contest?
2) What happens if the attacker is larger than you? Like a giant?

I was thinking of putting a house rule in my gurps game that calls for a quick contest, similar to the takedown under actions after grappling. The differences between a judo throw and a take down is that the thrown player has to make a health roll in order to not be stunned. Additionally, the judo fighter can attempt a throw after a successful parry.

judo throw don't have contest, it use the attack/parry mechanics, takedowns roll a quick contest. This is the main difference bettween them. Another issue is the damage roll for judo throw and the HT to test stunning, Takedown lacks this features.

Throw a giant? good question, in old martial arts 3e, there was a rule depent of the throwed weight. In the new system I can't found a similar. I argued with some other players in my youth that is possible, fo example, throw a 500 pounds ogre with a parry/judo throw, today I'm more cetic.

[LemmingLord]

I think I'd handle using "familiarity." Make it a -1 to -4 to parry an attacker too different from what you've been trained to defend against.

If you aren't used to fighting someone a size class bigger than you, then I'd give you a -1 or -2 to defend if they were just bigger versions of what you were used to. -3 or -4 if they attacked differently then you were used to (i.e. a giant tiger or pteradactlyl).

Bigger and I'd say -4.

Of course if in your campaign goblins have Judo and they are used to fighting human size creatures, I might give them a -1/-2 to defend against their own size category since they'd be used to training against bigger fellas and maybe not as much with their own..

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Daverius

It says under the skills section for Judo that if you successfully parry with your judo skill, then on your next turn if your attacker is within one yard you can make an attack using your judo skill, they can use any active defense they wish, but if you succeed and they fail to block you can throw them.

I had few questions:

1) Shouldn't there be a quick contest?
2) What happens if the attacker is larger than you? Like a giant?

I was thinking of putting a house rule in my gurps game that calls for a quick contest, similar to the takedown under actions after grappling. The differences between a judo throw and a take down is that the thrown player has to make a health roll in order to not be stunned. Additionally, the judo fighter can attempt a throw after a successful parry.

This seems conceptually similar to the way 3e handled things. By and large, I'm glad 4e moved away from it. It avoids many of the sequencing problems that the 3e method engendered.

To your questions:

Should there be a quick contest?

Personally, I don't think so. As a reaction, the Judo Parry is quite difficult (because it's 3 + half skill), so if you successfully use that skill to avoid an incoming attack, you're assumed to have done so in a way that sets up your subsequent move. Now, while as a practitioner, you will say "but after I set it up, I don't sit there and WAIT! I throw 'im right the heck now!" You are correct, but there is a blending from avoidance to entry to grappling to throwing, and you only get to do offensive things on your own turn; and in a one-on-one duel, you do get to follow up on your successful parry as your next action. Next, the Judo attack can be used to represent a grapple of the torso; this can be countered, and the other guy gets to roll an active defense, just like you did to avoid his technique. Putting a QC into this probably hurts the attacker more. And again, if you blow your attack roll, or the DEFENDER parries using Judo, HE can go right into a similar counter-grapple or strike and throw, and the sequence of whose turn it is is preserved.

Further, since a QC and its results is right then, this effecitvely compresses time and takes any other combatants, who are really acting simultaneously to our little grappling match here, out of the picture entirely. You need to wait for your own turn, because others' actions CAN influence what happens on the GURPS time scale.

What happens if your target is larger than you?

There are probably edge cases where you simply can't reach far enough to give proper leverage, or you can't move your attacker enough to apply the considerable leverage a properly executed Judo move can provide. Maybe something like "if your attacker weighs more than what a character of your ST can "shift slightly," you can't apply enough force for a takedown or throw." Whether you can apply moves like Arm Lock, but at a significant penalty, is a good question. Strength and size DO matter in these things; they matter a lot. Skill can make up for strength and size to a large degree; a small or human size Judo-ist might attack a giants FINGERS, applying leverage where it would do the most good, even if you can't pick him up and do a hip throw.

So I'd avoid the Quick Contest.

As for a HT roll to avoid stunning, the thrown person should also be allowed to do a Breakfall maneuver to avoid these effects. I believe "throw for damage" is covered explicitly in the rules; any damage taken also inflicts a shock penalty. If your intent is to make it possible to slam someone to the ground and have them stunned there, unable to act until he makes a HT roll to "wake up," I'm not sure this reality checks well in a hot-blooded fight. Is one possible result of a crit hit stunning? If so, that might be enough right there.

[Daverius]

Alright, I guess I'll stick with the original rules and add penalties against larger creatures, and different shaped creatures, ie a dire wolf.

Couple of more questions. It says that you can throw someone within one yard, does that mean in close combat? or can it mean an adjacent hex? For example, if someone was to attack with a broadsword, can the judo fighter parry and throw on his turn if the fighter stays in an adjacent hex?

I guess to negate the judo fighter the npcs can catch on that the player is skilled at throwing, I'll guess they will step out of range after a parried attack.

[jspade]

Also, remember that an armed foe who parries an unarmed attack -- such as the Judo throw -- gets a free shot at the attacking body part. Your Judo specialist is either going to get cut up if he engages knife fighters, let alone swordsmen, or he needs to wear armor, which will (through encumbrance) lower his Judo skill.

[jspade]

Originally Posted by Daverius

Couple of more questions. It says that you can throw someone within one yard, does that mean in close combat? or can it mean an adjacent hex? For example, if someone was to attack with a broadsword, can the judo fighter parry and throw on his turn if the fighter stays in an adjacent hex?

I've always read it as "in an adjacent hex" in tactical combat, i.e. within broadsword reach.