[Martial Arts] Choke Hold

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

Originally Posted by GURPS Martial Arts p.69

A carotid ("blood") chocke inflicts fatigue damage. A tracheal ("air") choke delivers crushing damage.

Does the text above mean that a carotid choke inflicts only the "chocking" part of the attack on the foe (that is, 1 lost FP per turn) or that a carotid choke inflicts fatigue damage instead of, but in the same amount of crushing damage (ie. if I win the Contest by 10, my adversary collapses in one second)?
Granted, the question sounds stupid, but I know little or nothing about grappling.
Thanks for your attention.

[Harald387]

It takes several seconds to choke someone out, even with a carotid choke. I would apply the 1 FP/turn.

I think (but expect someone to correct me if I'm wrong) that tracheal chokes deal crushing damage because it's actually really hard to cut off someone's air supply with a choke unless you're actually damaging the neck; the trachea's basically rigid, and while someone with a crushed trachea is also suffocating, he has other worries.

[giganerds]

Originally Posted by Harald387

It takes several seconds to choke someone out, even with a carotid choke. I would apply the 1 FP/turn.

A carotid choke can do throw down the most tough man in few seconds, I think it does FP damage instead crushing damage. When I was lern in Goshin Jutsu (a Jujutsu style) I see (and did once) some bulk men goes down in 1-3 seconds of carotid chokes.

Originally Posted by Harald387

I think (but expect someone to correct me if I'm wrong) that tracheal chokes deal crushing damage because it's actually really hard to cut off someone's air supply with a choke unless you're actually damaging the neck; the trachea's basically rigid, and while someone with a crushed trachea is also suffocating, he has other worries.

I agree with this part.

[Der Wanderer]

Ever got up to fast and felt dizzy? This happens because the body does not adjust quickly enough to the change in posture and is a result of reduced blood flow to the brain.
So I would assume that carotid choke should lead instantly to dizziness and unconsciousness. So I agree with gianerds that it should do FP damage...

[DouglasCole]

The carotid choke is moderately painful, but very, very rapidly debilitating. If properly applied, you're going to be out cold in only a few seconds.

The tracheal choke is VERY painful, but unless you give up due to pain, you have much more time before you run out of air; even a properly applied choke will give you 10-30 seconds of action depending on willpower and familiarity.

Most people will react more to the tracheal choke, in my experience, even though the carotid choke is "worse."

[giganerds]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

Ever got up to fast and felt dizzy? This happens because the body does not adjust quickly enough to the change in posture and is a result of reduced blood flow to the brain.
So I would assume that carotid choke should lead instantly to dizziness and unconsciousness. So I agree with gianerds that it should do FP damage...

And the vision blus too. It's almost qualify a basic affliction link.

[El Guapo]

Originally Posted by Harald387

It takes several seconds to choke someone out, even with a carotid choke. I would apply the 1 FP/turn.

I think (but expect someone to correct me if I'm wrong) that tracheal chokes deal crushing damage because it's actually really hard to cut off someone's air supply with a choke unless you're actually damaging the neck; the trachea's basically rigid, and while someone with a crushed trachea is also suffocating, he has other worries.

The brain basically requires a continuous blood supply to keep you conscious. Most of delay in losing consciousness comes from the time that it takes to properly apply the choke against someone who is fighting it. Once it's properly applied, it should put someone out in seconds. My guess would be to apply fatigue damage rather than 1 FP/turn.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by El Guapo

The brain basically requires a continuous blood supply to keep you conscious. Most of delay in losing consciousness comes from the time that it takes to properly apply the choke against someone who is fighting it. Once it's properly applied, it should put someone out in seconds. My guess would be to apply fatigue damage rather than 1 FP/turn.

Yes. Consciousness starts to go in as little as 3-4 seconds; more than ten of total occlusion and brain damage results. The conversion of FP to HP after zero FP is totally appropriate here - I might even apply the x4 modifier for brain injuries to the results.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yes. Consciousness starts to go in as little as 3-4 seconds; more than ten of total occlusion and brain damage results. The conversion of FP to HP after zero FP is totally appropriate here - I might even apply the x4 modifier for brain injuries to the results.

Agree with the 3-4 seconds to start going to sleep, but not with the brain damage: it takes minutes to permanently damage it.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Luther

Agree with the 3-4 seconds to start going to sleep, but not with the brain damage: it takes minutes to permanently damage it.

Doing a bit of reasearch, with a properly applied choke, 10-13 seconds is usually all that's necessary to put someone out; if you release it then, you'll be out for about twice that time.

The Judo guys say to never hold a fully applied choke for more than 20 seconds; I do know that brain cells start to die right quick, like 30 seconds, if oxygen is cut off. I'll ask my father in law (a physician) what he thinks. I do know "minutes" is how long you can typically hold your breath; you don't get that long with blood flow to the brain cut off.