Always On Regeneration?

[Not another shrubbery]

From the Regeneration + Costs FP? Does this work? thread, where Kelly Pedersen had written:

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I feel that anything that costs FP or ER points that you could otherwise spend to power other abilities definitely qualfies for Always On. You've got something that could very tactically inconvenient - that should be worth less than simple Regeneration with Costs Fatigue, since you could at least turn that off.

I’m not disagreeing with the idea that the version of Regen proposed is worth less than Regen with Costs Fatigue… just with the use of Always On as the model for the extra limitation. AIS, I think Nuisance Effect works better, since the drawback is fairly minor, and the effect is not “on” in the normal sense of the word unless energy is being burned by it.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

From the Regeneration + Costs FP? Does this work? thread, where Kelly Pedersen had written:I’m not disagreeing with the idea that the version of Regen proposed is worth less than Regen with Costs Fatigue… just with the use of Always On as the model for the extra limitation. AIS, I think Nuisance Effect works better, since the drawback is fairly minor, and the effect is not “on” in the normal sense of the word unless energy is being burned by it.

It's hardly even a nuisance effect unless it will run out out of fatigue and into unconsciousness. In general, you would usually want to heal automatically.

[cmdicely]

I'd say that Regeneration, as written, is a physiological feature so that if you add Cost Fatigue, you have no choice but to pay the FP whenever Regeneration could work. To be able to turn Regeneration off, you need Switchable.

[Mark Skarr]

My Hero GM has a peculiar view of this. He strongly feels that (in Hero) unless you buy Always On, it can be turned off. His logic is that there are times (especially in some of his games) where you won't want to heal. Sometimes letting yourself die is better.

In GURPS, I think cmdicely is right, in a general sense. However, Costs Fatigue doesn't directly address this problem in either Characters or Powers.

My problem with putting Switchable on Regeneration as a prerequisite is that this now-limited power costs more than an unlimited version of itself.

[JoelSammallahti]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

I'd say that Regeneration, as written, is a physiological feature so that if you add Cost Fatigue, you have no choice but to pay the FP whenever Regeneration could work. To be able to turn Regeneration off, you need Switchable.

Physiological schmysiological. It could be any number of things, but Costs Fatigue makes any advantage switchable for no extra cost. That's been clarified on this forum more than once.

[vitruvian]

I'd say that Regeneration, as written, is a physiological feature so that if you add Cost Fatigue, you have no choice but to pay the FP whenever Regeneration could work. To be able to turn Regeneration off, you need Switchable.

I'd say that if you apply Costs FP to a normally always on ability such as Regeneration, it normally makes it switchable, but by the same token it requires a Ready action to turn on or off like any other switchable ability. For something like DR to remain always on even though it Costs FP would be ridiculous, since it would rapidly result in unconsciousness and death as first FP and then HP drained away at the relevant rate.

However, for something like Regeneration, which even though always on only effectively kicks in when you're down in HP, I'd allow a variation where you could apply Costs FP to the trait, have it kick in and cost you the fatigue points only when needed without a Ready action, but you would have no choice about whether this happened without also adding Switchable. Think of it as balancing a Reflexive enhancement and a Trigger limitation, if that makes more sense to you. However, I don't think it's overall any more limiting than Regen that you need to consciously turn on, *or* that Reflexive Regeneration should cost more than plain vanilla Regeneration. Just make it a +/-0% variation.

[Greystar]

To be honest in any type of heroes or fantasy setting regeneration IS Always on there is no choice in the matter. If you want to make it slightly less powerfull make it so its triggered (btw I dont have a gurps book handy to look for modifiers for it) suchs as active once unconcious or costs fatigue or it something that you can only regenerate if it comes from an outside source or you fall and break something... I think its still a GM call especially if they are a "rules Nazi" aka everything by the book there is no deviation from the book and if it's not in the book it can't apply. The chick on heroes "The Cheerleader" can't turn hers on or off, Wolverine can't turn his on and off, Hulk only heals when he is in "The Hulk" form... Werewolves in whitewolf heal none aggrivated damage when the shift back to their natural form. Trolls in AD&D can regenerate from only a piece of them left behind or if anything is cut off a new troll will be created from it (but I don't think I'd ever use Troll-Like regeneration for a player). I had some other examples of regeneration but I can't think of them at the moment.

[vitruvian]

To be honest in any type of heroes or fantasy setting regeneration IS Always on there is no choice in the matter.

I think everybody's aware of that, and of the examples you cite. The question is, what does 'always on' mean when you apply the Costs Fatigue limitation to your regeneration?

Does it mean that you lose one FP per minute or second, until you die (or stay comatose forever, because presumably once you run out of FP, you're losing and regaining one HP per period of time)? That doesn't seem to make sense.

Does it become switchable with a Ready maneuver, as when the same limitation is applied to something like Damage Resistance? There are certainly characters like this, who need to concentrate in order to heal themselves (think Phoenix instead of Wolverine - used to use TK as the excuse for some major regeneration and Unkillable) Would you then need to apply Reflexive in order to make it automatically kick in when needed? But that would then be more expensive than unmodified Regeneration that works without any FP cost.

Or would it be better to allow a variation where it kicks in automatically when needed, costing you the fatigue points only until it's no longer needed? And if that's the effect you want, how do you cost it? Just a different interpretation of Costs Fatigue, or is there another limitation and/or enhancement involved?

[Not another shrubbery]

<idle musing> I'm thinking that perhaps the best way to assign Costs Fatigue to Regen is to vary the CF cycle according to the Regen cycle. Something like -5% per 1 FP per {recovery rate for the level of Regeneration}... eg, -5% per 1FP per minute for Fast Regen, or -5% per 1FP per second for Very Fast. The idea is that the fatigue cost needs to be equally limiting for different recovery rates. <idle musing>

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Greystar

To be honest in any type of heroes or fantasy setting regeneration IS Always on there is no choice in the matter. If you want to make it slightly less powerfull make it so its triggered (btw I dont have a gurps book handy to look for modifiers for it) suchs as active once unconcious or costs fatigue or it something that you can only regenerate if it comes from an outside source or you fall and break something... I think its still a GM call especially if they are a "rules Nazi" aka everything by the book there is no deviation from the book and if it's not in the book it can't apply. The chick on heroes "The Cheerleader" can't turn hers on or off, Wolverine can't turn his on and off, Hulk only heals when he is in "The Hulk" form... Werewolves in whitewolf heal none aggrivated damage when the shift back to their natural form. Trolls in AD&D can regenerate from only a piece of them left behind or if anything is cut off a new troll will be created from it (but I don't think I'd ever use Troll-Like regeneration for a player). I had some other examples of regeneration but I can't think of them at the moment.

What about Vampiric regeneration? In many settings, they have to spend ER (usually "Blood Points" of some kind) to regain their HP. One can CERTAINLY imagine regeneration that exhausts the user while he is healing (spending fatigue for regen). None of the examples you site have that sort of thing.

So, imagine two characters: one can use his regeneration tactically (like the vampire). He can choose to ignore his wounds in favor of spending his fatigue on an effect that's more powerful. For example, he might power his uber spell and defeat his opponent first, then worry about finding a way to heal himself. Imagine the second character, whose regeneration kicks in automatically whenever he's hurt (like Wolverine), but the regeneration exhausts him. He loses fatigue and has no choice in the matter. He can't opt to save his fatigue for other things, and it can even knock him on his back.

Clearly, character two has less useful regeneration than character one. How do you model it? Either you require the player of the more powerful regen take switchable and fatigue cost, or the other takes fatigue cost and always on. Personally, I believe the rules seems to support the latter, as once you apply a fatigue cost to something, you have the option of not spending the fatigue, but IDHMBWM