[OOC] In Nomine: the Mile Higher Club

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by RadLilim

I agree with Met on all accounts, but...



Actually when you are on the Celestial plane, things can move at a different pace. However, right now our fight is on the Corporeal plane, we are all just in our Celestial form. At least that is canon. Again, Barb can tweak what works best. If we were actually on the Celestial plane, that'd mean either all us angels are in hell with Pepito, or he's in heaven with us. Either way, bad stuff(tm) would happen.

Oddly enough I was reading something trying to pin down an NPC's beliefs, and he would say that the difference between Heaven and Hell is experiential. They're the same place, they even both have the Presence. It's just that demons find that Presence horribly painful, and angels find it bliss. But I digress...

Glad we're dealing with this now, and not later. 'Cos apparently I understand planes a little bit differently!

If you were all in Celest form on Corp plane, the neighbors could hear you. If they stopped by, they might be able to *see* you. This would be bad...

Will have to find where this is in canon, but my non-game understanding is that they do overlap geographically. People in astral projection are in the ethereal plane where it overlaps with the corporeal--they can see and hear corp events but can't affect them, or generally be seen. This is where my conceptual understanding is coming from.

The Marches don't just border on Blandine and Beleth's domains (and Gabriel's volcano) IMHO, they overlap them. One is in one or the other but can potentially perceive two at once. A person dreaming is in one or the other, but gets stimuli from both.

Semi-unrelated note, reread Bright and Dark Dream. Marcus (the demon in Dark) leaves his vessel lying around while he possesses Adam. You folks like vessel-space. Pending more input (esp. from Archangel Beth) I'm going to say a celestial simply has a choice of whether to leave the vessel in the physical or 'bag' it off to the pocket dimension known as vesselspace. If said celestial is ambushed, exorcised, or otherwise fails...I'd say a Perception check, to find said pocket dimension..he's got to figure out where to stash the body.

Still sorting this out, clearly.

Got another bite from a local player. :)

Will wait just a little bit to end the scene with Pepito, giving Puck time to check in and myself a little time to smooth out the plane etc. issues. Figure it's done tomorrow night with luck, Sunday night otherwise. (I'll be camping out LARPing this weekend)


Had a little creative fun just now. Need to put it on its own page, but for now my take on some of the Archangels.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/tHEhERE...CMainNPCs.html

[alexondria]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Oddly enough I was reading something trying to pin down an NPC's beliefs, and he would say that the difference between Heaven and Hell is experiential. They're the same place, they even both have the Presence. It's just that demons find that Presence horribly painful, and angels find it bliss. But I digress...

Glad we're dealing with this now, and not later. 'Cos apparently I understand planes a little bit differently!

If you were all in Celest form on Corp plane, the neighbors could hear you. If they stopped by, they might be able to *see* you. This would be bad...

Will have to find where this is in canon, but my non-game understanding is that they do overlap geographically. People in astral projection are in the ethereal plane where it overlaps with the corporeal--they can see and hear corp events but can't affect them, or generally be seen. This is where my conceptual understanding is coming from.

The Marches don't just border on Blandine and Beleth's domains (and Gabriel's volcano) IMHO, they overlap them. One is in one or the other but can potentially perceive two at once. A person dreaming is in one or the other, but gets stimuli from both.

Semi-unrelated note, reread Bright and Dark Dream. Marcus (the demon in Dark) leaves his vessel lying around while he possesses Adam. You folks like vessel-space. Pending more input (esp. from Archangel Beth) I'm going to say a celestial simply has a choice of whether to leave the vessel in the physical or 'bag' it off to the pocket dimension known as vesselspace. If said celestial is ambushed, exorcised, or otherwise fails...I'd say a Perception check, to find said pocket dimension..he's got to figure out where to stash the body.

Still sorting this out, clearly.

Got another bite from a local player. :)

Will wait just a little bit to end the scene with Pepito, giving Puck time to check in and myself a little time to smooth out the plane etc. issues. Figure it's done tomorrow night with luck, Sunday night otherwise. (I'll be camping out LARPing this weekend)


Had a little creative fun just now. Need to put it on its own page, but for now my take on some of the Archangels.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/tHEhERE...CMainNPCs.html

Possessing is different- that is using a song not going celestial. As I understood it the vessel goes into vessel space if you go celestial. If you go to the marches the vessel remains asleep where ever you were. As for perceiving celestial forms on the corporeal plane that would be perception of the perceiver + celestial forces of the form being perceived as the target number. I would assume the same to hear, but am not sure on that one. Also in canon- which you might want to throw out for this battle and just say it is another wonky effect of the exorcism, when you destroy all the celestial forces something has if it still has a living vessel it becomes a remnant. This is not the same as the celestial- it believes it is it's role that it had in that vessel. In other words if they destroyed all Pepito's celestial forces and he still had any corporeal forces he would become a human- at which point Zahira would do everything she could to stop them from killing him as the demon would be dead. Mind you it might be a brain dead human if he loses enough ethereal, but still human at that point.

Sorry if this is long winded, just got back into town and am trying to respond to everything at once.

Standard disclaimer of the fact I am not associated with staff, this is just how I read the rules as a gm.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by alexondria

Possessing is different- that is using a song not going celestial. As I understood it the vessel goes into vessel space if you go celestial. If you go to the marches the vessel remains asleep where ever you were. As for perceiving celestial forms on the corporeal plane that would be perception of the perceiver + celestial forces of the form being perceived as the target number. I would assume the same to hear, but am not sure on that one. Also in canon- which you might want to throw out for this battle and just say it is another wonky effect of the exorcism, when you destroy all the celestial forces something has if it still has a living vessel it becomes a remnant. This is not the same as the celestial- it believes it is it's role that it had in that vessel. In other words if they destroyed all Pepito's celestial forces and he still had any corporeal forces he would become a human- at which point Zahira would do everything she could to stop them from killing him as the demon would be dead. Mind you it might be a brain dead human if he loses enough ethereal, but still human at that point.

Sorry if this is long winded, just got back into town and am trying to respond to everything at once.

Standard disclaimer of the fact I am not associated with staff, this is just how I read the rules as a gm.

Thanks for the reminder on the perceiving celestial forms in the corp realm. It's a very clear rule and I'd simply lost track of it.

Yep, I knew about the Remnant thing--just about choked when I saw it. But tossed it over in my head today and considering it a possibility. Except that I already promised...well, how did Da'at put it? "A demon came in here, but a demon will not go out".

Was going to put a poll in LJ, but there's a thing going on in LJ today so I'll wait and put it here. I can--
Call the Impudite totally dead, as planned.
Leave it to the cards. Pulling cards to determine which Forces go down in which order, that's about a 1 in 9 chance he'll go Remnant. Same odds as losing all Ethereal Forces (my calculus is shaky, so I could be wrong on the 1/9), but that isn't fatal...so odds of becoming a brainless Remnant are pretty good too.
Decide he goes Remnant, and let him fade out of story. It can be done, depending on what you all want from his survival, if you want his survival.
Decide he goes Remnant, and keep him around. Salvation is possible, but so is hurting folks--even with no memory at all of his demonic life, he's still selfish, sadistic, and none too bright. Which makes for hella plot, but won't make characters' lives any easier.

Thoughts? Or wait until I put up poll on it, prob Sunday?

[RadLilim]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

If you were all in Celest form on Corp plane, the neighbors could hear you. If they stopped by, they might be able to *see* you. This would be bad...

Semi-unrelated note, reread Bright and Dark Dream. Marcus (the demon in Dark) leaves his vessel lying around while he possesses Adam. You folks like vessel-space. Pending more input (esp. from Archangel Beth) I'm going to say a celestial simply has a choice of whether to leave the vessel in the physical or 'bag' it off to the pocket dimension known as vesselspace.

I don't think sounds travel between realms, again canon understanding. But they could walk in and see us, yes. However I'm not too worried about random people walking into the apartment. Most people don't just walk into other people's houses unannounced. If so, we'd deal. We are angels, we can do no wrong ;)

Also, as far as I've heard, the fiction that is in the core books has no real influence on canon. There are many things canonically wrong with that story. I like the story but AA Beth has said that in the past.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by RadLilim

Also, as far as I've heard, the fiction that is in the core books has no real influence on canon. There are many things canonically wrong with that story. I like the story but AA Beth has said that in the past.

Looking at it and not at the history of discussions, I'd say the Dream stories are canonically stretching, rather than outright wrong. But then my (rather touchy) background is that one can justify nearly anything with the right (or wrong) reading of the rules--hence the "Lawyers go to Hell" comment at the very beginning. It's also fanfic thinking: How exactly did that demon phrase the deal she made with Dean, and what kind of loophole is he going to look for, and of those loopholes which will make satisfying yet plausible story?

(If you get the chance, read Stephen King's Misery for this mindset taken to bloody extreme.)

Having to choose between prose and game mechanics, I will go with prose. All options open, I will go with consensus. Which is why I'm putting as much in this thread just now. Seeking some kind of consensus rather than any kind of decree...satisfying yet plausible story.

Wouldn't be random people, would be the curious/concerned little neighbor lady, and even then only if the noise is impossible to ignore, and even then she's a very Catholic lady who barely speaks English--I'd be playing more than anything.

[alexondria]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Thanks for the reminder on the perceiving celestial forms in the corp realm. It's a very clear rule and I'd simply lost track of it.

Yep, I knew about the Remnant thing--just about choked when I saw it. But tossed it over in my head today and considering it a possibility. Except that I already promised...well, how did Da'at put it? "A demon came in here, but a demon will not go out".

Was going to put a poll in LJ, but there's a thing going on in LJ today so I'll wait and put it here. I can--
Call the Impudite totally dead, as planned.
Leave it to the cards. Pulling cards to determine which Forces go down in which order, that's about a 1 in 9 chance he'll go Remnant. Same odds as losing all Ethereal Forces (my calculus is shaky, so I could be wrong on the 1/9), but that isn't fatal...so odds of becoming a brainless Remnant are pretty good too.
Decide he goes Remnant, and let him fade out of story. It can be done, depending on what you all want from his survival, if you want his survival.
Decide he goes Remnant, and keep him around. Salvation is possible, but so is hurting folks--even with no memory at all of his demonic life, he's still selfish, sadistic, and none too bright. Which makes for hella plot, but won't make characters' lives any easier.

Thoughts? Or wait until I put up poll on it, prob Sunday?

I can tell you Zahira understands why he has to be killed now- but if he was to go remenent as far as she is concerned he really would be the kid he's been pretending to be. It would almost be giving the kid that the killed a second chance (or more acurately his parents a second chance to not feel like failures). She would do anything in her power to keep him alive and turn him around- if he were to become a remenent. If they kill him with out him becoming a remenent- she won't be happy because they are breaking their word to him, but she will understand.

[Sylver]

Remember that while he may *think* he's this regular boy, any other interested Demonic Party (or just any Dark Humor demon or even just Kobol) who would find him might be interested to bring him to *A* Prince (not necessarily Kobol) so that Prince can tie some Celestial Forces to him - if he still has Etherial Forces, he'll retain his memory and what Pepito *now* knows might be worth something to Someone..

So there's a chance that letting him survive means dealing with him *again* at some future date (assuming the Prince doesn't rip him apart after gaining all the relevant data..)

[tHEhERETIC]

The poll is open.

http://community.livejournal.com/inn...ive/15138.html

I'll be off camping for a couple of days, but I expect more time off than not this coming week.

[RadLilim]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Having to choose between prose and game mechanics, I will go with prose.

Which I am perfectly happy with and love. I feel that I have a fair grasp of the rules, so just putting that out there, so people aren't shocked/dismaied when things are different.

You are doing a good job, btw.

[tHEhERETIC]

Tidying up some mechanics before I sit down for IC prose.

The poll at this point is 3 to none for letting the cards decide the outcome of this scene, and seeing as the party itself is divided on this I drew cards. You'll see how that went, but you'll still have some negotiating to do.

Rereading Superiors: Blandine to get a better sense of forms and planes. Have the rest of the books handy in case I need that.

Still have not resolved the question of whether those in Celest form can observe those in Corp and vice versa. Fairly urgent question--truly I'm working on that, but if you'd rather not wait for a ruling there's always consensus.

brb

Back.

Looking at canon and previous parts of this thread: Rina, Zahira, and Salla can perceive their celestial-form brethren with a die roll--thank you alexondria for that reminder (post #262). Perceive is both seeing and hearing any dialogue/noise etc, and other senses as well.

Looking at the Blandine section I find IN canon separates the realms to a greater degree than I'm used to thinking of them, almost no overlap at all. So I'm pulling back towards canon on this. Shen, Da'at, Mitch, and Ash (and Pepito) are in Celest form but in the Corp realm. While it 'feels' to me to be an uncomfortable state of being, it is maintainable. There have been Disturbances popping in and out of forms but as your actions are Officially Sanctioned by a Servitor of Laurence, you're not going to be gathering any hostile angelic attention. And demons aren't known to come running to rescue their brethren.

Other things we've been tossing around, some 'house rules' that are still negotiable but they're the assumptions I'm working under:

People in dreams can and do create ethereals. Old ethereals have escaped the Marches and have corporeal vessels, and those vessels aren't always human or even necessarily living beings. Think animism. The Ban isn't "a joke" but it has been discreetly ignored, to a degree that the characters will find alarming as they get deeper into it.

When angels go to celestial form, they must take a moment of Perception to find a vesselspace (functionally, a pocket dimension) to tuck their vessels into. Another Perception + Corp forces check will retrieve that vessel i.e. let them find it again. Only the vessel's owner and the keeper of that angel's Heart (probably his/her Superior) will know its location or have access to it.
The angel may choose to leave the vessel on 'autopilot' i.e. lying there sleeping. That's usually a choice, but if you're surprised (as in an exorcism) you may lack the round it takes to find a proper pocket. Then the vessel falls where it lies.

Folks in celestial form on the corp. realm can perceive the corp realm, though it has a misty quality to it. I'll have to look at the rules more thoroughly, but I don't think a celest form can affect corp objects. You just stand there looking good (or fearsome), or whip out your songbook.

As I said, it's all negotiable at this point. These are working rules for the scene in play, but can be revised/clarified for next time 'round.

What I wrote the scene from. WARNING: I used actual divination cards (the Vertigo/DC Comics Tarot deck) so if such things bother you you may not want to look: here