In between HP and Ablative DR

[Harald B]

I'm working on some personal notes for a dungeon-crawl-esque campaign I might run at some point, and looking to do the typical mostly dramatic ability of heroes to withstand huge amounts of damage that would easily kill normal people. Ablative DR is supposed to be the way to go for this, but I want to have the following properties of regular HP:

• increases rate of healing
• wounding modifiers and injury tolerance apply
• armor devisors do not apply (not even any kind or amount of Ignore DR)

Meanwhile, I want the Ablative DR-like properties of only counting when in the positive (so that -HP comes as quickly as normal once you're at 0) and of not counting where mass is the issue. I'd be willing to go either way on matters like shock, crippling, and 1/3 HP.
This is probably a matter of adding a limitation or enhancement, but what kind of percentages should we be looking at here? Or should I just go with Ablative DR and houserule away the differences into what I want without changing the price?

[Talonxlll]

If HP is 3 points per Hp, and Abalative is 1 point to 1 armor, and your looking for somthing in the middle, perhaps an DR limitation that brings it down to roughly 2 points per HP/Abalative? -60% I think

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Talonxlll

If HP is 3 points per Hp, and Abalative is 1 point to 1 armor, and your looking for somthing in the middle, perhaps an DR limitation that brings it down to roughly 2 points per HP/Abalative? -60% I think

The cosmic-hardened, cosmic-against-malediction enhancements will prohibit such a cost. Also, 'ITs apply' is a very serious request; I found this when I decided to make an IT:DR force field. You're better off buying HP with the +0% No Mass modifier, and probably some limitation of No Negative-HP Effect, probably around -60%.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Molokh

You're better off buying HP with the +0% No Mass modifier, and probably some limitation of No Negative-HP Effect, probably around -60%.

This is the right direction, I think. It's definitely a form of HP in appearance. -60% is too much of a limit, as it makes the HP even cheaper than Ablative [HP are 2pts/lvl]. If the other qualities of positive HP (affecting shock, crippling, etc.) remain, it should be a minor limiter... maybe -20%.

JMO

[Adina]

Originally Posted by Harald B

increases rate of healing

Ablative DR already heals concurrently with HP, effectively doubling healing rate. If you are looking at Ablative DR of 20+ remember healing rate is 1/10 base i.e. 2 per interval with 20+, 3 with 30+ and so on.

Originally Posted by Harald B

wounding modifiers and injury tolerance apply

Applying wounding modifiers is a limitation. I'm not clear how you want IT to apply here.

Originally Posted by Harald B

armor devisors do not apply (not even any kind or amount of Ignore DR)

That would be the Hardened enhancement.

Originally Posted by Harald B

Meanwhile, I want the Ablative DR-like properties of only counting when in the positive (so that -HP comes as quickly as normal once you're at 0) and of not counting where mass is the issue. I'd be willing to go either way on matters like shock, crippling, and 1/3 HP.

These are limitations as well but I would leave these all based on just HP.

Originally Posted by Harald B

This is probably a matter of adding a limitation or enhancement, but what kind of percentages should we be looking at here? Or should I just go with Ablative DR and houserule away the differences into what I want without changing the price?

You could work out all the limitations and enhancements but with a 1pt/level cost advantage I would just define the game effects you want and call it a 0% modifier.

JeffM

[Brandy]

I agree with Molokh and Not Another Shrubbery. You want to buy this as a version of extra HP.

On pricing, the primary benefit of HP is to soak damage; not extending the negative range (so that -HP is figured from your base HP) is a pretty minor component of the value of HP, all things considered. Not adding Mass/ slam resistance is also pretty minor.

I think if I were doing it, I'd do the following:

1) Characters purchase their ST level normally.
2) Characters may purchase extra HP above ST as normal; this is limited to +30% of their ST. This is their HP value that determines mass for slams, and the damage threshold for -HP, -2xHP, et cetera.
3) Characters may purchase additional HP (lets call them Cinematic HP) above and beyond these. These HP *also* cost 2/level; no particular limitation will apply (in my mind, I'm balancing the limiting effect of "won't help me in the negatives" with the enhancing effect of "can buy lots more HP than my ST should allow"). Above all, this is *simple* -- it's clear (to me) that the cost should be somewhere from 1-2 points, and closer to the high side than the low, so just calling it 2 points instead of some fractional value is what I would do.

In effect, these Cinematic HP are a HP reserve -- similar in some regards to the relationship between innate FP and an Energy Reserve. You could even let these points recharge independent of rest or "natural healing" -- perhaps even giving them an enhanced rate of renewal (1/ hour; 4/day; whatever suits you!) if you wanted to give them a boost over "normal" HP.

You can decide which HP total matters for things like Major Wounds, et cetera, and treat them as a single common pool for things like healing. It seems resonably balanced, and simple at design time.

BTW, here's a post from Kromm that might be useful if you haven't seen it already.

[naloth]

As a house rule I allow a 0% modifier for ADR so that it can be used as HP instead. Anytime you would lose HP, you can substitute ADR instead.

DR bypassing attacks cannot bypass this type of ADR at all (it's effectively HP!) and Injury Tolerance will make it much more effective. As a drawback attacks that do multiple HP worth of damage per point (cutting, impaling, piercing) will use up ADR at the same rate you would lose HP.

It's about the same as HP w/"Massless 0%" and "Doesn't increase HP thresholds (life, consciousness, crippling) -50%"

[Kromm]

Consider adapting the Energy Reserve idea to HP instead of to FP. A "Vitality Reserve" should do what you want. To fully parallel the behavior of ER, it should be depleted independently of HP, not be subject to the ill effects of HP loss, heal in parallel with HP, and heal irrespective of rest. So VR would amount to HP that you can lose without shock, knockdown, knockout, or death, and that regenerate at the rate of 1 HP/day on a successful HT roll, regardless of conditions. Most of these advantages parallel Ablative DR (which is also independent of HP and not subject to the ill effects of HP loss). Moreover, neither affects what happens in slams and falls. The differences:

Advantages of Ablative DR:

1. Stops damage, not injury; e.g., 1 point prevents 2 HP of injury from an impaling wound to the torso, 4 HP of injury from a skull hit, etc.

Advantages of Vitality Reserve:

1. Soaks all injury, including that from disease, poison, and radiation; extreme dehydration and starvation; critical failures that result in direct injury; vampiric leeching; and Cosmic attacks that ignore DR.
2. Can be spent like HP for any ability that allows this, notably spells.

I'd say that justifies simply pricing VR like HP, much as ER is priced like FP.

[Harald B]

Wow. That's a mighty interesting concept, and indeed should work out nicely. In fact this is so nice, I might even use it in the VtM campaign I'm currently running! Thanks a bunch. (And my thanks to everyone else who responded as well.)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Consider adapting the Energy Reserve idea to HP instead of to FP. A "Vitality Reserve" should do what you want. To fully parallel the behavior of ER, it should be depleted independently of HP, not be subject to the ill effects of HP loss, heal in parallel with HP, and heal irrespective of rest. So VR would amount to HP that you can lose without shock, knockdown, knockout, or death, and that regenerate at the rate of 1 HP/day on a successful HT roll, regardless of conditions. Most of these advantages parallel Ablative DR (which is also independent of HP and not subject to the ill effects of HP loss). Moreover, neither affects what happens in slams and falls. The differences:

Advantages of Ablative DR:

1. Stops damage, not injury; e.g., 1 point prevents 2 HP of injury from an impaling wound to the torso, 4 HP of injury from a skull hit, etc.

Advantages of Vitality Reserve:

1. Soaks all injury, including that from disease, poison, and radiation; extreme dehydration and starvation; critical failures that result in direct injury; vampiric leeching; and Cosmic attacks that ignore DR.
2. Can be spent like HP for any ability that allows this, notably spells.

I'd say that justifies simply pricing VR like HP, much as ER is priced like FP.

Out of curiosity, is this from the Supers playtest? At least, was it considered?