Character Points in GURPS are WAY Overused

[Gavynn]

I thought I would write a short discourse on why you should not use character points to try and help out some of the newer people to GURPS. There appear to be a several of them in the last few days, and I have been meaning to write this anyway. Most of the veterans will know all this already but I think these are useful points to emphasize to newer players since GURPS has a wrap for being a tough game to GM since there is so much prep work required. This is true, but not nearly so much as some people think. So here it goes:

GURPS uses a character point system for character generation, obviously, and every ability, skill, etc, in the game has some point cost tied to it. These points are used like money to purchase abilities and powers for the player characters. That is it. As far the GMing goes he or she never actually has to use points again. That is right, the only time a GM has to figure the point value of an ability is if a player want to buy it. You actually never have to compute the point value of an NPC. You can just sit down with a NPC record sheet and fill it in regardless of points. Oh yeah, and you even don’t have to worry about assigning advantages and disadvantages. NPCs are not worried about getting points back for overconfident. A few sentences on the NPC’s personality is perfectly alright such as, “A hot headed teenager with a crippled left hand where one of his basement made explosive devise proved to be a bit unstable”.

Think about it, GURPS character points are not the same as D&D levels. So you don’t have to worry about sending NPCs of equal points values against the PCs. The point value of an NPC can be irrelevant. If you want your BBEG to be able to shoot magical bolts from his hands at will that freeze the target in place for a few seconds, just write it down – there is no need at all to go looking through Powers to figure up the point cost of the power. Just write, “He has the ability to point at a foe and send a bolt of plasma looking energy from his finger. It hits the first thing in its path – and block and parry are no defense against it. If a living target is touched they are frozen in space and time for d6 seconds. They may still be harmed as usual, but can take no actions at all. They act normally after the time is expired and are not even aware of the passage of the few seconds”. There no point cost required.

It is ironic that as I was typing this into a Word document Nik1979 posted:

given the amount of traits there goes to undead. I'd rather just cut and paste the OGL(D20) traits for it. No points to bother about accounting for 400 points worth of advantages, disadvantages and traits.

Exactly.

This goes back to being able to pick up the sourcebooks of other games and use them in GURPS – cutting down on GM prep time.

Allow me to give an example with the AD&D monster manual. Lets say I would like to have a [flips to random page in the AD&D MM] Dark Naga in my GURPS game.

This is a “fey creature who have human-like faces (with fanged mouths) on leathery, snake-like bodies. They usually work with other evil being for mutual gain or survival. They tend to be black, purplish-black, or vey dark blue in hue, and their crested heads and smooth, almost invisible scales make them look more like gigantic eels than snakes.” Okay. Lots to work with right there that does not need GURPS stats.

Now there abilities:

Dark nagas have natural ESP powers (80 foot range) and use this ability constantly.

Ok, I don’t care how many levels of ESP talent the naga has, I just need a number for connected with its ESP ability incase I need it for something – lets say 12. For its powers lets give it Clairsentience, Danger Sense, and Para-Radar.

“Dark Nagas have a bite and a poisonous sting. […] and being struck by the stinger must save vs. poison or take 1-2 additional damage and fall into a drugged sleep (onset time one round, sleep lasts 2d4 rounds)”

In GURPS terms, they have snake-like fangs so lets say thrust-1 cutting damage. I’d say their jaws are more powerful then a human so lets make that 1d cutting damage from the bite. Now, the stinger lets say does impaling damage as this is a big thing for 1d + 1. On a hit the Naga injects its poison. The victim must roll HT or be effected. If failed the character starts feeling its effects in 10 minutes and then goes to sleep for 2d4 x 10 minutes. Note I did not even change to d6. Lots of us have polyhedral dice laying around. There is nothing in this world that says you can't use polyhedral dice while playing GURPS behind the GM screen. But changing this to something d6 would not be hard either.

The most feared ability of dark nags is their power to wield magic.

Okay. Lets say the Naga knows:

Clumsiness at level 12
Hinder at level 14
Rooted Feet level 14

Those appear to fit with my idea of a big snake that can charm you.

Dark Nagas are immune to the effects of all known (normal and magical) acids, venoms, and poisons.

OK. No problem there.

Some have even been known to swallow poisons and acts as a courier, spitting the dangerous liquid when the deliver it to its destination. They can spit poison up to ten feet distant at any opponent. This takes the place of their bite attack, though a naga can elect to bite and release the poison as it does so, combining the damage.

GURPS has stats for poisons and acids if I want this naga to be carrying any inside it. So no conversion work done there. I would say that spraying it ten feet distant is a like throwing it to the naga in a cone shaped spray. Maybe a DX roll by the Naga to hit.

Dark Nagas cannot be mind-read; the ESP ability somehow renders them immune to the ESP-like prowers of others. They are subject but resistant to charm, sleep, hold, and similar enchantment/charm spells, receiving a +2 bonus to all saving throws against this school of magic.

I’ll make that a call on the GM’s part whenever someone tries to cast a charm, sleep, hold, and similar enchantment/charm spell on the naga. I will make that a +1 to the naga’s save in GURPS terms.


From there, the next four paragraphs are about a naga’s habitat, society, and ecology and can all be used as is in a GURPS game.

From there, assign HT, DX, IQ, and ST as you see fit. Move might be good to. Lets say HT 12, DX 10, IQ 9, and ST 11. It moves fast, lets say Move 6. An SM modifier might be nice for combat purposes. The AD&D MM says “up to 12 feet long” so SM +2. If I had an idea what this Naga was going to be used for I might give it three or four skills at the level that I wanted, but since I plan on this just being a monster the PCs have to kill I will just wing those. Oh yeah. Lets say it has DR 1 and 12 Hit Points.

So voila! GURPS naga. I don’t know how many points it is – I don’t care how many points it is. If I did not have to type this out I could have made may notes in my GM’s notebook in under 5 minutes easily. The key here is, that if you need to assign something to the naga during play, right it down then you have it for next time and can stay consistent. The rest is just gravy. Describe this strange creature to the PCs as they see it slither in the shadows and hisses. Describe it coiled and ready to strike. None of that requires stats or character points.

So my point is, that even though we expect game designers to give us point values for a naga template in a book we buy, it is totally unnecessary to give a complete GURPS stat block and point value to most everything in the game. I am preaching to myself as well. For instance, the Orc and Orc-kind templates I posted a while back ago, all of that is great for reference and making the game internally consistent – but no one will actually care what the point value of an orc they are fighting is – ever.

So, in short, stop stressing out and just go play GURPS! It is a lot easier than you think!

[PaladinV]

This is one of the most helpful things I've seen so far. Thank you very much for it. I really appreciate it. The only time I can see it being useful to have a point total would be if I were going to post it as a published material. I feel so liberated now. Thanks again.

[Kromm]

To back up Gavynn: I've designed dozens of monsters for several fantasy campaigns. I've never worked out the point value of a monster in my career as a GURPS GM. I honestly have no idea what having such a value would actually give me as a GM, given that points aren't useful as a "threat rating" and given that I don't let players play monsters as PCs.

[Extrarius]

Ignoring points doesn't work for some types of games and some types of gamers - as a simulationist with a (hopeful) game where PCs can (eventually) do anything NPCs can do, ignoring points only works until the point where players say "Cool!" I refer only to point cost for individual abilities, but once you know those you practically know the point value of the npc/monster/etc (not that the latter score is helpful, but no reason not to write it down if you know it).

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by PaladinV

This is one of the most helpful things I've seen so far. Thank you very much for it. I really appreciate it. The only time I can see it being useful to have a point total would be if I were going to post it as a published material. I feel so liberated now. Thanks again.

You are very welcome! Thank you for the compliment.

Originally Posted by Kromm

To back up Gavynn: I've designed dozens of monsters for several fantasy campaigns. I've never worked out the point value of a monster in my career as a GURPS GM. I honestly have no idea what having such a value would actually give me as a GM, given that points aren't useful as a "threat rating" and given that I don't let players play monsters as PCs.

Wow. It's great to be backed up by the man himself. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Extrarius

Ignoring points doesn't work for some types of games and some types of gamers - as a simulationist with a (hopeful) game where PCs can (eventually) do anything NPCs can do, ignoring points only works until the point where players say "Cool!" I refer only to point cost for individual abilities, but once you know those you practically know the point value of the npc/monster/etc (not that the latter score is helpful, but no reason not to write it down if you know it).

There is still not a problem here. I utterly believe that the PCs should be able to acquire the same abilities as the NPCs - to the proper extent described below. I'd put myself on the simulationist side myself. But allow me to demonstrate how my above post does not conflict with yours.

First off, maybe there would never be a situation where a PC would be a Naga. Like Kromm said, in your game the PCs are never monsters. That is not unreasonable. From there, I say that it is a particular part of the naga anatomy (a part of their brain) that allows the naga to use ESP. Thus it is never an ability a PC is going to buy with CP. Problem solved. But even if I want to let PCs have ESP - that is no problem either! The GURPS Basic Set has all the info I need for PC ESP point cost if they want to buy it. Theu could do exactly what the naga could do. They can buy ESP talent at 5 points a level to whatever level they want. Clairsentience is 45 points as ESP ability. Danger sense is 13.5 points as an ESP ability (whichever way I round), Para-radar is 40. No problem. Incidentally that means the naga has about 100 points in ESP ability - but that means nothing, and I only figured that up when the PC said, "Hey GM - I'd like to buy some naga-like ESP powers with my CPs" and for whatever reason I said "Ok".

Similarly, every other thing I described about the naga could have a point value assigned to it so it could be bought by PCs. Of course, anything that I deem is anatomically unique to being a naga needs no point value if the PCs cannot be nagas.

To another example, my character with the time stop bolt. I have no doubt at all that if a PC wanted that ability at character creation Powers could make it. I'll leave that to the Powers wizards we have on the board. But what if they see the NPC use this ability in the game and decide they want it for themselves. Then they have to learn it! Maybe they steal the wizard's spellbook and this spell is written therein. If you are using mana based spell casting, GURPS has rules for making custom spells. Assign it difficulties and pre-reqs and let the players expend the time in training and/or CP expenditures to learn it. If you are using Power based magic, then you can go through Powers and figure out its CP cost. Tell the PC how much time he or she must spend practicing the spell (or less time for a reduced effect) etc, etc, and then once that is complete raise the PC's point total by that amount. No harm done.

Nothing I posted prevents the PCs from doing what the NPCs can do.

The point is, that same wizard might have a dozen "kool powrz" like the one above. It might take a lot of time to go through Powers and create a point cost for each one - and they will never be used. Only expend the time to calculate the value of that one power in between game sessions after the PC asks about learning it and the GM has declared it is possible to do so.

[Gavynn]

I want to expand on this slightly. GURPS character points are really only for character creation. Since GURPS lets you create any kind of character you want, there has to be some system in place to keep all the players on about the same power level - essentially so no one feels shafted. They are all equal point values and they bought as they willed with those points. (But there is nothing that requires PCs to start at equal point values! It is just that in a game - to be fair to everyone playing they can all spend up to the same amount of CPs).

Once characters are made, there is only one more use for CPs - and that is a reward for the PCs from the GM that allows them to advance in a measured and controlled fashion. However fast the GM sees fit. PCs do not have to stay at equal point values after character creation.

Lets say in the first encounter, one PC gets his arm ripped off with no way to put it back on. He now has the One Armed disadvantage and went from being a 150 point character to a 130 point character. Sucks to be him, but the new point value of the character now that the game has begun is largely unimportant.

Likewise, lets say I design a magic sword the the PCs to find. It is magically enchanted so that it it never tarnishes (blood just beads up and runs off of it), is particularly good at cutting through things (so have an armour divisor of 2), have pearls set in the pommel that glow when brought within 6 inches of poison, and magically releases all handcuffs, shackles or other restraints (but not knots) within 10 feet of it when the wielder says "Merrydale". I am sure I could come up with a point cost for the sword. I am also sure that it does not matter. I am not going to adjust the fighter's point total when he gets the sword or anything like that. He just now has this sword.

Points do qualify how much the characters have improved over time. "Wow I started as a 150 point character six years ago now I am a 203 point character. Woot!" Another player may only be only a 187 point character, and another a 197 point character. It no longer matters. The fighter that found the magic sword above might have gone to all the trouble to figure out how many points it is worth just so he can say - "Hey suckers - when I have this sword with me I am a 217 point character!" But again, that does not matter now that the game has begun. It is not like the fighter "won GURPS" or anything because he is higher in point value than everyone else.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Gavynn

It is not like the fighter "won GURPS" or anything because he is higher in point value than everyone else.

If anyone ever came to me with the "zomg guprs suxx0rz cuz this lame d00d won t3h grups" attitude, I wouldn't even attempt customer service. I'd just make use of my software's blacklist. Anybody who rates progress in terms of how many completely abstract units of power he has amassed relative to another person in an imaginary game is well on his way to screwing over RPGs about as much as idiots who get lost down steam tunnels while wearing elf suits . . .

I know that makes me a jerk, and guilty of denying others their hurting wrong fun, but as a writer, I'm entitled to be a bit of an artiste. Especially right now, when my frickin' gallbladder hurts so much that I'm chipping teeth after taking the pills. :P

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Kromm

To back up Gavynn: I've designed dozens of monsters for several fantasy campaigns. I've never worked out the point value of a monster in my career as a GURPS GM. I honestly have no idea what having such a value would actually give me as a GM, given that points aren't useful as a "threat rating" and given that I don't let players play monsters as PCs.

I've found it useful to document what you do. Just in case you want to take a given set of traits and fiddle around with them later on. Beats doing it from scratch.

Besides there's a certian element of satisfaction knowing what you did to the PCs with your little creation was done fully in accordance to the rules.

GMs ahve a full multiverse of NPCs, equipment and situations to clobber them with it that's your goal. Confounding them or entertaining the players within context of the rules is just a another shiny nugget in one respect, but lots of folks like shiny nuggets.

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

Besides there's a certian element of satisfaction knowing what you did to the PCs with your little creation was done fulling in accordance to the rules.

GMs ahve a full multiverse of NPCs, equipment and situations to clobber them with it that's your goal. Confounding them or entertaining the players within context of the rules is just a another shiny nugget in one respect, but lots of folks like shiny nuggets.

I firmly believe that the naga example, while done quickly, is in full accordance with the GURPS rules. Such is the beauty of the system SJ has given us. It is just that I believe the point values of the NPC abilities are retrofitted to the GM's concept (if a point value for an ability becomes necessary for whatever reasons). Player characters have to do this the other way around. Character concepts and powers have to be retrofitted to fit the given GURPS system framework. It is just the GURPS can easily handle a myriad of different concepts.

The GM is not constrained to making NPCs with a point value in mind, and so the rules system is very flexible when you have no point limit. For example, in the naga example, according to the arbitrary basic stats I assigned it, the naga should have a Basic Speed of 5.5 for a dodge of 8 - exactly the same mechanic the PCs use. Ordinarily this would give a move 5 for the creature, but I wanted it to be faster so I assigned it a move of 6. Thus the naga must have a level of increased move for 5 points. But since the number of points the GM has to spend on the naga is irrelevant, assigning the naga a move of 6 is no problem and can still be modeled exactly as per the GURPS rules to the "T". This is not at all "cheating" on the part of the GM.

All that the GM would have to decide, if and only if he or she wanted to developed a naga racial template for PCs to use, if of the increased move is a racial trait of all nagas (they just move faster than the formula used for humans would suggest) or if this was just a personal trait of this particular naga.

There is no rule bending on the part of the GM in play here at all.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Gavynn

Snipped

Take a look at the Morph advantage for one reason you might want to give things Templates.