Super ST in GURPS Super

[Aldaris]

Hello to all.

I have recently read in this post

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...9&page=3&pp=10

the probable solution to balance ST cost with Innate attacks. Shortly, with a +300% enhancemet to ST, you can use ST in whatever aspect (except HP) with the Super-Effort rules as per Lifting ST (p. P58). But ... am I the only who think that this solution is a little to powerful? With a +20 ST a character colud have +5000 ST! Using a choke manoeuvre on an adversary with normal Strength, you can inflict 5000 points of damage (*1,5 to the neck). To convert 4900 points of damage to dice is: 4900 / 7 * 2 =1400 dice of crushin damage! Even with Cost Fatigue and Melee Attack "C" it costs 4550 cp as an IA. And Super Effort ST give you many other advantages.
Furthermore, is it balance with skills as brawling, karate, boxing and advantages as claws and long arms? Is not there the danger that all the threads in which we discussed on as to balance ST with IA are replaced by the same that will discuss on as to balance IA with SE ST?

[Ironhand]

You're right Aldaris. It is one hell of a huge enhancement that is way underpriced. Still, if it gets misused or used in the wrong type of campaign to begin with I think its the GM's fault. I wouldn't allow it or only allow a certain number of levels for superstrong characters. I might force them to play a strick brick template with a restricted amount of the super st enhancement. In the whole I think its a good solution for four color high point games where strength and damaging attacks can really consume a lot of points to get only even a moderate effective amount. Lifting strength with super effort was a good start, but a lot of people like me like to have supers with oompf that can dish out damage close to what they can lift. I don't want a version of the Thing that can lift a tank in each hand, but can't scrap his mailbox to retrieve a letter he didn't mean to mail. Really strength and damaging effects run a huge point total in comparison to the effectiveness of a lot of fifty to hundred point powers on what they can do. I think used right the new rules can be a great point saver when used properly by a good group of players under a competent GM. Munchkins be damned. You have very good points Aldaris and any GM should be careful with introducing it without considering its effects and placing any needing limitations to make it feasible.

[David Johansen]

I'm still convinced that the ideal solution is to just take limitations to bring the point cost down and buy the 200+ points of Strength. Most really strong supers have a level or two of growth or size, for example. The hulk certainly gets bigger as he gets stronger.

For instance

-10% Super
-15% Pascifism Cannot Kill Pact (or other I've lost my confidence pact)
-10% Size +1
-10% Costs 2 fatigue
-20% Full Power in emergencies only

Some of it could also have Accessiblity (only in costume)

or a Temporary Disadvantage (Berserk?)

But the thing to do is get it up to a -80%. For supers games I'd probably allow two pacts or Temporary disadvantages to get it there.

This seems much more elegant than the various builds I've seen and gets the Hulk's Strength down to around 600 points. Which seems reasonable. I've also come to the conclusion that 1000 points works much better for marvel level heroes than 500. If you get it down to 2points / level ST is pretty balanced against inate attacks.

The main problem I have with super effort lifting strength is that it's inelegent as all get out. Though for guys like Superman it's pretty much inescapable.

However one must keep in mind that Super Effort Strength is an use of extra effort, so I probably wouldn't allow it to be used to choke someone. I'm pretty sure the rules are written with the assumption that you're already trying to choke them as hard as you can.

In fact I wouldn't allow super effort st to apply to anything other than the things extra effort applies to.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I'm still convinced that the ideal solution is to just take limitations to bring the point cost down and buy the 200+ points of Strength. Most really strong supers have a level or two of growth or size, for example. The hulk certainly gets bigger as he gets stronger.

I'm pretty much convinced that's not the solution. Having a ST200 isn't really high for lifting and even at that low of a value he has unmanageable amounts of damage and HP.

To truly produce comic like results you have to make a few unrealistic adjustments. Damage seems to be unreasonably low relative to a super's lifting ability. Super strong characters seem to lift tanks but still don't turn people to a fine mist when they hit them.

Linear damage with a low logarithmic lift formula seems fit w/comic. For that Lifting ST (Super Effort), works reasonably well though throwing (especially damage) is a problem.

Likewise, Striking ST doesn't work on a Supers scale. It's really only balanced for relatively low ST where characters have low or no innate attacks. Once you add in the ability to buy 20d innate attacks Striking ST just isn't worth buying.

For now, I suggest tabling this argument until G:Supers actually comes out. Taken out of context this modifier does seem unbalanced, but taken with everything else in Supers it may be reasonable.

EDIT: Just to clarify I haven't seen G:Supers and I'm very concerned that it won't do what I want. I don't want 'realistic' Supers that do turn people into fine mists for a low cost. I want easy ways to create DC/Marvel type universes where you can play Batman and Superman in the same game without a lot of hand waving.

Having said that I prefer to wait and make any complaints I have against the product after I've read and digested the whole thing rather than go off based on a little morsel that the author was kind enough to release.

[Anthony]

The problem for linear damage with logarithmic lifting is that supers really do do ridiculous levels of damage -- to objects. Generally speaking, a super can break anything they can lift.

For what it's worth, ST was a gigantic flame-war during the playtest.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem for linear damage with logarithmic lifting is that supers really do do ridiculous levels of damage -- to objects. Generally speaking, a super can break anything they can lift.

For what it's worth, ST was a gigantic flame-war during the playtest.

Sounds like an interesting variant to the 'scrub' rule:

"Any object non-named* object you can lift can also be destroyed with a physical attack action."

*non-named is anything the GM decides is plot worthy. These things are destroyed normally.

[Anthony]

It's still not that easy, because the reverse principle also holds -- anyone capable of taking a hit from a super who can lift/break object X can also take a hit from a weapon that can break object X. What it really amounts to is 'in a supers universe, living beings are amazingly tough'.

[David Johansen]

I should add a cavet, I suppose. The average person in a supers campaign should probably have at least 50 ablative DR. This would be roughly the same effect as Stun Points in the old supers.

Possibly they should even automatically equal the character's point total.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It's still not that easy, because the reverse principle also holds -- anyone capable of taking a hit from a super who can lift/break object X can also take a hit from a weapon that can break object X. What it really amounts to is 'in a supers universe, living beings are amazingly tough'.

Even this isn't really the truth. It's that things don't scale realistically. In the normal human range things work pretty much as you'd expect. Living beings can still beat each other up pretty well and even kill each other with 'normal' weapons. Pistols are dangerous to unarmored supers.

Going up the scale, though, in a DC/Marvel type world material strengths are lower but penetration damage is proportionally lower too. Rifles that aren't much more dangerous than pistols and military weapons aren't even that penetrating. Iron doesn't have to be much tougher than wood is in our universe.

Of course re-stating everything for Supers isn't practical.

[PK]

Getting effective ST into the thousands is the only way that a super can actually do things like stop a tank with one punch or do serious damage to another brick with IT(DR/1000). While it's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to the sheer side of the numbers being thrown around, it's hardly a "big deal" from a supers standpoint, where one player may quite innocently ask, "How much strength do I need to throw a mountain?"

Anyways, ST +20 (Super-Effort, +300%) is 800 points. For the same 800 points you could build an Innate Attack which destroys every building in a city, no roll needed. For the same 800 points, you could have the psychic ability to render every person in that city unconscious with a thought. For the same 800 points, you could easily build a gadgeteer with enough High TL, Wealth, and skills to walk into a Radio Shack and walk out with a TL12 world destroying megaweapon. For the same 800 points . . . well, you get the idea.

Compared to all of that, the ability to punch a hole in a tank and throw a person half a mile doesn't seem very overpowered to me at all.