A Different Way of Creating Naruto (And Ninja) Jutsus...

[Justice]

Hey! I'm sort of new to the forum, but I searched around and didn't find a discussion like this.

Anyways, I've seen a lot of people using 'Powers' as a way to simulate Naruto jutsus and abilities, to which I agree with to a certain extent: Things like Sharingan and Byuakugan are obviously powers. They come from one's physical body and such. But I've been looking around, and I'm wondering if the jutsu used would be better suited under a magic system.

For example, your Chakra Control abilities could be analogous for the magery advantage. For certain clan skills, a clan specialization (essentially a magery specialization) shows your affinity for your clan techniques or simple elemental affinities. Thusly Shikamaru would have "Chakra Specialization: Nara" or Sasuke would have "Chakra Specialization: Fire".

Obviously some work on the "Magic Ritual" chart is necessary (Since jutsus often require hand-motions no matter what), but with a few fixes, it could be worth it.

Things I like about the Magic System:

- Knowing and practicing a jutsu/spell decreases its' FP cost, which allows you to use them without cost. This means you don't have to spend as much on the increased FP advantage, makes trivial jutsus have no FP cost (so you don't have to worry about completely ruining your stamina with Shunshin or Kawarimi), and reward people for practicing and improving their skills.

- It allows skill disparity and improvement. For example, your average academy student might be able to use a Katon, but they wouldn't be as fast or as efficient as a skilled Chuunin. Also, it allows someone like Uchiha Itachi to actually be so fast with his jutsu that it's hard to counter.

- You can limit high-level jutsus by putting requirements on them. For example: If your guy wants Chidori and has Sharingan, that's cool. You just have to have Chakra Control 3, Body Activation, Enhanced Move 2, and it's a very hard skill. But WHAT a skill it is...

Things I don't like about it:

- Unlike Powers, it requires you to make it up a bit more without a good, balancing structure already in place. You have to make up a lot of the spell/jutsu requirements and such. It'd require a heckuva lot of work on the GM's side to balance and

- Requires a little more self-limitation. Indeed, you theoretically COULD use Shunshin all day... but eventually you will get tired. A GM has to monitor to make sure people don't abuse powers after they reach a certain skill-level.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Justice

Anyways, I've seen a lot of people using 'Powers' as a way to simulate Naruto jutsus and abilities,

Like me! :-)

Originally Posted by Justice

Things like Sharingan and Byuakugan are obviously powers. They come from one's physical body and such.

Remember, powers don't necessarily have to be internal to the user. Powers with Divine and Spiritual sources are, more or less by definition, external to the user, who merely requests for effects.

Originally Posted by Justice

But I've been looking around, and I'm wondering if the jutsu used would be better suited under a magic system.

The issue I have with these suggestions, and the reason I eventually went with straight powers, instead of trying to build new "spells", is that you can already do pretty much all this with the existing advantage system.

Originally Posted by Justice

- Knowing and practicing a jutsu/spell decreases its' FP cost, which allows you to use them without cost. This means you don't have to spend as much on the increased FP advantage, makes trivial jutsus have no FP cost (so you don't have to worry about completely ruining your stamina with Shunshin or Kawarimi), and reward people for practicing and improving their skills.

One of the primary benefits of having Talent in a power is that you're allowed to spend earned points on the abilities within it, with no funky justifications nessecary - just say "I'm training my powers". In addition to allowing you to buy new abilities, this has the important effect of allowing you to buy off limitations, and buy new enhancements for your existing abilities. To simulate gaining increased skill in a jutsu, simply buy off levels of Costs Fatigue.

Originally Posted by Justice

- It allows skill disparity and improvement. For example, your average academy student might be able to use a Katon, but they wouldn't be as fast or as efficient as a skilled Chuunin. Also, it allows someone like Uchiha Itachi to actually be so fast with his jutsu that it's hard to counter.

This is covered by a couple of things. First, the "Skills for Everyone" rule (Powers, p. 162) lets you enforce skill use to activate abilities. Second, speed-wise, the rule I mentioned above, about buying off limitations, works well for buying off Takes Extra Time.

Originally Posted by Justice

- You can limit high-level jutsus by putting requirements on them. For example: If your guy wants Chidori and has Sharingan, that's cool. You just have to have Chakra Control 3, Body Activation, Enhanced Move 2, and it's a very hard skill. But WHAT a skill it is...

This is extremely simple when using powers: simply say "Ability B has Ability A as a prerequsite. If you want B, take A." Powers mentions doing this on p. 31.

Originally Posted by Justice

- Requires a little more self-limitation. Indeed, you theoretically COULD use Shunshin all day... but eventually you will get tired. A GM has to monitor to make sure people don't abuse powers after they reach a certain skill-level.

Note that while a spell, supernatural ability, etc, might not have an inherent fatigue cost, using it repeatedly will probably count as a fatiguing activity - I suggest using the rules for overland hiking (Basic, p. 426) for this sort of thing.

[Justice]

Well, that was quicker than expected. Thanks for the in-depth response!

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Remember, powers don't necessarily have to be internal to the user. Powers with Divine and Spiritual sources are, more or less by definition, external to the user, who merely requests for effects.

That didn't come out like I meant it. I understand the concept of external powers (I've been reading the Trials of Shazam!, ironically enough). I sort of meant it to contrast my feelings that Jutsus are more like skills and spells... Yeah.

The issue I have with these suggestions, and the reason I eventually went with straight powers, instead of trying to build new "spells", is that you can already do pretty much all this with the existing advantage system.

That was my biggest concern, yeah. I mean, I don't mind building spells too much, but sometimes balancing such things can be troublesome.

One of the primary benefits of having Talent in a power is that you're allowed to spend earned points on the abilities within it, with no funky justifications necessary - just say "I'm training my powers". In addition to allowing you to buy new abilities, this has the important effect of allowing you to buy off limitations, and buy new enhancements for your existing abilities. To simulate gaining increased skill in a jutsu, simply buy off levels of Costs Fatigue.

Hm. I'm not as familiar with Powers as I am with the Magic (Which I've been running a Fantasy campaign with), so I suppose I never noticed it. I suppose I was a bit put-off by how expensive some of the 'made-up jutsus' seem to be after searching a few threads around here.

This is covered by a couple of things. First, the "Skills for Everyone" rule (Powers, p. 162) lets you enforce skill use to activate abilities. Second, speed-wise, the rule I mentioned above, about buying off limitations, works well for buying off Takes Extra Time.

Again, I obviously need to look over my powers book a little closer. Yeah, I definitely need to.

This is extremely simple when using powers: simply say "Ability B has Ability A as a prerequsite. If you want B, take A." Powers mentions doing this on p. 31.

But I like my complex magic college system!! :P

Yeah, I understand what you mean. I'm sort of used to having a bunch of prerequisites for things, and most of my players are as well. They aren't actual GURPS players, so having a bunch of freedom is a bit... odd at first. Giving them a structure of learning was something I was looking to do.

Then again, it all depends on how I'm thinking of building my own game. After reading most of this, I'm going to look into a more Powers-Based system.

Note that while a spell, supernatural ability, etc, might not have an inherent fatigue cost, using it repeatedly will probably count as a fatiguing activity - I suggest using the rules for overland hiking (Basic, p. 426) for this sort of thing.

Hm. I'll remember this. I always sort of did this before (In a more general fashion), but I never thought of using the hiking rules...

Real quick question: Where do you put your average players in points, as I'm not used to a Chambara setting and I don't want to overpower people too quickly.

[David Johnston]

One reason not to use a spell system is that their powers don't really follow the prerequisite mold. Certain characters specialise in certain types of jutsu, certainly but Naruto didn't have to learn (in fact failed to learn) the standard clone jutsu before moving on to Shadow Clone, and Sasuke, although he knows a fireball jutsu, shows no sign of possessing lower level fire abilities.

[Justice]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

One reason not to use a spell system is that their powers don't really follow the prerequisite mold. Certain characters specialise in certain types of jutsu, certainly but Naruto didn't have to learn (in fact failed to learn) the standard clone jutsu before moving on to Shadow Clone, and Sasuke, although he knows a fireball jutsu, shows no sign of possessing lower level fire abilities.

Hm.

Well, I'll disagree. Sasuke has shown a decent number (At least three, including the fireball one), though they were all at the same level (I think they're C-Rank or something). Uchihas specialized in Katons, as noted by Kakashi. ;-)

Of course, you are right on Shadow Clone. Then again, it might not have a requirement at all. *Shrugs*

When I said that I'd put a sort of structure in place, it wouldn't be like a strict spell college system, but specializing in one area would allow you to get to more specialized and powerful abilities. An example would be be more like "Knowing 3 Fire Jutsus allows you to get to these", "Knowing two Water and two Wind gets you this", etc. Create a distinguishable hierarchy of jutsus.

[HeroPenguin]

Originally Posted by Justice

Sasuke has shown a decent number (At least three, including the fireball one), though they were all at the same level (I think they're C-Rank or something). Uchihas specialized in Katons, as noted by Kakashi. ;-)

Of course, you are right on Shadow Clone. Then again, it might not have a requirement at all. *Shrugs*

When I said that I'd put a sort of structure in place, it wouldn't be like a strict spell college system, but specializing in one area would allow you to get to more specialized and powerful abilities. An example would be be more like "Knowing 3 Fire Jutsus allows you to get to these", "Knowing two Water and two Wind gets you this", etc. Create a distinguishable hierarchy of jutsus.

Actually, unless I'm greatly mistaken, Sasuke actually only knows Grand Fireball in the manga. All the other jutsus he's used in the anime were made up. Fun how that works out.

Regardless, I'd disagree that Naruto jutsus use prerequisites, with one major exception. Extensions of techniques, such as Shikamaru's Shadow Neck Bind, or walking on water after walking up walls require a prerequisite ability first. Again, the evidence is in the fact that Naruto learned Shadow Clone without knowing the normal Clone.

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

In fact, in recent chapters of the manga, Naruto's been developing a new technique of his own that uses elements of the Rasengan and wind-element chakra, despite the fact that Naruto has never used a wind-element jutsu. Or any kind of elemental jutsu, for that matter. If Naruto used a prerequisite system, he wouldn't be able to do this without first knowing other techniques, especially since he's changing an already A or S rank jutsu on his own.

END SPOILER END SPOILER

All in all, I agree with Kelly overall. If your arguments against a Powers based system are based on exertion and training, there are already optional rules in Powers to facilitate that very thing, and Powers has the advantage of better point balance and a more defined structure for building new abilities. If you really want to use Magic, go for it, but I still feel Powers is better suited for the job.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Justice

Hm. I'm not as familiar with Powers as I am with the Magic (Which I've been running a Fantasy campaign with), so I suppose I never noticed it. I suppose I was a bit put-off by how expensive some of the 'made-up jutsus' seem to be after searching a few threads around here.

I'd argue that that's not actually so much of a bug. One of the main complaints about the magic system in GURPS is that it's rather unbalanced compared to regular advantages. While I'm not sure that this is as extreme as some people think, it is a concern of mine. In any case, building stuff as spells is just harder than using advantages, in my opinion - there's already pretty much all the tools you need in the advantage system, whereas there's no comparable system for powered skills.

Originally Posted by Justice

Yeah, I understand what you mean. I'm sort of used to having a bunch of prerequisites for things, and most of my players are as well. They aren't actual GURPS players, so having a bunch of freedom is a bit... odd at first. Giving them a structure of learning was something I was looking to do.

Oh, feel free to do so! It's totally cool to say "In this world, you need Warp before you can take Jumper. That's just the way it works." (Not really Naruto-specfic, but you get the idea.) Make it as complex as you want. And the best part is, prerequisites don't even change the cost of abilities, so you don't have to worry about limitations or anything!

Originally Posted by Justice

Real quick question: Where do you put your average players in points, as I'm not used to a Chambara setting and I don't want to overpower people too quickly.

Well, in my current campaign, I gave people 1300 points, plus a 100-point disadvantage limit, I believe. However, this has produced some rather seriously high-powered characters, not just in their powers, but also in their stats, which has caused me some difficulty, frankly. If I was going to do it over again, what I would probably do is this: first, I'd give the players a "base" set of points, probably 150 for academy student/new genin, 200 for experienced genin/new chunin, 250-300 for experienced chunin/new jounin, and 400-500 for experienced jounin. Have them build their basic characters with those: stats, skills, and any advantages that aren't explicitly ninja powers. Also, it's probably a good idea to set caps on attributes - I set my players a cap of 15 on all stats, except for one stat they could have at 20, or two at 18. If I was doing it over, I might lower that cap to 14, with one stat at 18, or two at 16. Once the players were finished building their characters from the base points, I'd give them another 1000+ points to build ninja powers. (One thing to remember: Naruto ninjas have very high point values, generally - most of the characters in the series are crazy powerful, overall; anyone who seems to suck only really does so in comparison.) All the power points would have to go into whatever ninja powers the characters selected, with the accompanying limitations. I made the mistake of letting my players take too much Super Jump and Enhanced Move without limits, which really makes them too movement-happy for a Naruto game, I think.

One thing to note: I'd say that if you're worried about running GURPS with a high point value, Naruto is probably not the place to start. Like I said earlier, Naruto more-or-less demands high point values to replicate the stuff they can do.