Traveling (daily travel distance) rules and FP, Fit and Very Fit

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Flowergarden

I always thought it was move/2 miles per hour, and resting is on you. Especially considering that Hight Tech saying: 'good fp scores and fit will give an edge here'. So I suppose it was a simplification for DF of not counting resting hours.

Yeah, the High Tech rules are better if you want higher precision. Note this will mean that the players will have to come up with a hiking plan, rather than just going with the assumptions from Basic Set. If you're needing to get somewhere as quickly as possible, you'll want to hike until the lowest-FP person drops below 1/3 FP (at which point their Move is halved), then rest long enough that they'll drop below 1/3 FP again by the time you reach your destination or stop for the night. If you instead want to stay fresh, you'll probably want to hike for just an hour (two hours if everyone has No Encumbrance and are Very Fit) at a time, rest long enough for everyone to recover their FP, then set off again.

For simplicity, let's say it's just you, and you have Move 6, FP 12, and Light Encumbrance (lose 2 FP per hour of hiking). You are planning to be out hiking for a full 16 hours. If you're trying to get as far as possible in those 16 hours, you'll hike for 5 hours, dropping down to 2 FP, which is below 1/3rd. You'll then rest for 80 minutes, eating a meal of travel rations (which gives a "free" +1 FP) to get back up to full FP and follow that up with another 5 hours of hiking. At this point, you've got 4 hours and 40 minutes left before you need to stop. So you rest for 70 minutes, eating another meal of travel rations, restoring a total of 8 FP. That lets you stay above 1/3rd FP for the remaining 3.5 hours of hiking ahead of you. So, that's a total of 13.5 hours of hiking at Move/2 mph, resulting in you traveling 40.5 miles. If you had Very Fit, you'd be able to hike for 9 hours straight (losing only 1 FP each hour) before dropping below 1/3rd HP, then take a 25 minute break for rest and rations (restoring 6 FP in the process), then hike for the remaining ~5.5 hours while staying at or above 1/3rd HP. That's an extra 2 hours of travel compared to the above, and thus you travel 46.5 miles.

Note the above is ignoring the fact that you need to eat 3 meals, that a lot of travel rations aren't in a form that allows you to just eat them right away (some preparation is typically called for), and that it takes time to make and break camp. So you'd need to factor those in when actually running it at the table.

As a final note, if you want HT to matter more than just giving you your base FP, you could change hiking from a constant 1 FP (plus encumbrance) per hour to a roll against HT (or, perhaps more appropriately, HT-based Hiking) every 30 minutes, where failure costs 1 FP (but Encumbrance now affects Move rather than using the base value) while success means you don't have to pay this time. Note this can avoid the issue that, for high HT characters, jogging or even sprinting can get you to your destination faster and for comparable or even less FP than hiking (with HT 16, you'll generally lose 1 FP every 54 minutes of jogging or every 13.5 minutes of sprinting; as these correspond to roughly double and quadruple your hiking speed, the first gets you nearly twice as far for a given FP expenditure and amount of time as hiking, while the second gets nearly as far for a given FP expenditure but in 1/4th the time as hiking).

[Anthony]

The core problem is that the rules for daily distance are totally dissociated from any of the other rules on travel, and also not particularly realistic (yes, there are people who can manage 50 miles per day while carrying a 30 lb backpack on good terrain. Those people are not, however, ST 10/HT 10 with no training), and the High Tech rules are more or less throwing them out and replacing them with something that produces somewhat more plausible answers.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Varyon

As a final note, if you want HT to matter more than just giving you your base FP, you could change hiking from a constant 1 FP (plus encumbrance) per hour to a roll against HT (or, perhaps more appropriately, HT-based Hiking) every 30 minutes, where failure costs 1 FP (but Encumbrance now affects Move rather than using the base value) while success means you don't have to pay this time. Note this can avoid the issue that, for high HT characters, jogging or even sprinting can get you to your destination faster and for comparable or even less FP than hiking (with HT 16, you'll generally lose 1 FP every 54 minutes of jogging or every 13.5 minutes of sprinting; as these correspond to roughly double and quadruple your hiking speed, the first gets you nearly twice as far for a given FP expenditure and amount of time as hiking, while the second gets nearly as far for a given FP expenditure but in 1/4th the time as hiking).

On the other hand, it's a lot more rolling, and it considerably extends the distance high HT characters can move between rests.

My personal inclination is the other way - double the time between FP losses when moving fast and remove the rolls.

[Sigrif]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The core problem is that the rules for daily distance are totally dissociated from any of the other rules on travel, and also not particularly realistic (yes, there are people who can manage 50 miles per day while carrying a 30 lb backpack on good terrain. Those people are not, however, ST 10/HT 10 with no training), and the High Tech rules are more or less throwing them out and replacing them with something that produces somewhat more plausible answers.

Well, you forgot that encumbrance applied to distance, so there is 40 miles per day for ST 10 with 30lb stash. But eah, it simplisticated and not that realistic.


My only problem with basic's hiking, though, that when you have 16 HT you can just run longer and faster, than hike (You have ~32% not to lose FP while running for an hour, right about 1/3. And yeah, you can lose more FP than 1, but you still travel ~2-3 times faster).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Sigrif

Well, you forgot that encumbrance applied to distance, so there is 40 miles per day for ST 10 with 30lb stash.

+25% for good terrain.

Originally Posted by Sigrif

My only problem with basic's hiking, though, that when you have 16 HT you can just run longer and faster, than hike (You have ~32% not to lose FP while running for an hour, right about 1/3. And yeah, you can lose more FP than 1, but you still travel ~2-3 times faster).

16 HT is cinematic, I'm fine with it being able to do silly things.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Rupert

On the other hand, it's a lot more rolling, and it considerably extends the distance high HT characters can move between rests.

My personal inclination is the other way - double the time between FP losses when moving fast and remove the rolls.

A third option is to have a set interval after which FP loss occurs, but have the interval be dependent on HT. Here's an example table.

HT	Sprint	Jog	Hike
3	15s	1m	30m
4	15s	1m	30m
5	15s	1m	31m
6	16s	1.1m	33m
7	18s	1.2m	35m
8	20s	1.35m	40m
9	24s	1.5m	48m
10	30s	2m	1h
11	40s	3m	1.3h
12	1m	4m	2h
13	1.5m	6m	3h
14	3m	10m	5h
15	5m	20m	10h
16	13m	1h	24h

That's based on the percentages of FP loss. An alternative that honestly isn't too far off in the 10-15 range (it overstates the effect of low HT, understates the effect of really high HT... but does mean HT above 16 would be more useful, even without penalties) is to roughly follow the Size and Speed/Range Table progression.

HT	Sprint	Jog	Hike
3	2s	10s	5m
4	3s	15s	7m
5	5s	20s	10m
6	7s	30s	15m
7	10s	45s	20m
8	15s	1m	30m
9	20s	1.5m	45m
10	30s	2m	1h
11	45s	3m	1.5h
12	1m	5m	2h
13	1.5m	7m	3h
14	2m	10m	5h
15	3m	15m	7h
16	5m	20m	10h
17	7m	30m	15h
18	10m	45m	20h

Honestly... I think I like that last one. It avoids rolling, is easier to handle, progresses more cleanly, etc.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Anthony

16 HT is cinematic, I'm fine with it being able to do silly things.

The record for distance running in 24 hours is nearly 200 miles. And there are actually lots of people who can routinely run 100 miles in about 16 hours - or even less. (The 24 hour record holder, Aleksandr Sorokin, actually ran 100 miles in under 11 hours.) So I don't think the rules for running and hiking are that* far off the mark, not for a game, at least.

*Cue the memory of Fred Brackin.

[Flowergarden]

Originally Posted by Anthony

16 HT is cinematic, I'm fine with it being able to do silly things.

But running 16 isn't.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Sigrif

My only problem with basic's hiking, though, that when you have 16 HT you can just run longer and faster, than hike (You have ~32% not to lose FP while running for an hour, right about 1/3. And yeah, you can lose more FP than 1, but you still travel ~2-3 times faster).

Originally Posted by Anthony

+25% for good terrain.

16 HT is cinematic, I'm fine with it being able to do silly things.

Originally Posted by Flowergarden

But running 16 isn't.

I asked Microsoft Copilot to run a sample sprint so I wouldn't have to.

| Time     | Cumulative Distance (yards) | Dice Roll | Current FP |
|----------|------------------------------|-----------|------------|
| 12:00:00 | 0                            | -         | 10         |
| 12:00:15 | 90                           | 12        | 10         |
| 12:00:30 | 180                          | 14        | 10         |
| 12:00:45 | 270                          | 13        | 10         |
| 12:01:00 | 360                          | 16        | 10         |
| 12:01:15 | 450                          | 10        | 10         |
| 12:01:30 | 540                          | 17        | 9          |
| 12:01:45 | 630                          | 15        | 9          |
| 12:02:00 | 720                          | 10        | 9          |
| 12:02:15 | 810                          | 18        | 8          |
| 12:02:30 | 900                          | 11        | 8          |
| 12:02:45 | 990                          | 14        | 8          |
| 12:03:00 | 1080                         | 13        | 8          |
| 12:03:15 | 1170                         | 17        | 7          |
| 12:03:30 | 1260                         | 12        | 7          |
| 12:03:45 | 1350                         | 10        | 7          |
| 12:04:00 | 1440                         | 18        | 6          |
| 12:04:15 | 1530                         | 16        | 6          |
| 12:04:30 | 1620                         | 14        | 6          |
| 12:04:45 | 1710                         | 17        | 5          |
| 12:05:00 | 1800                         | 15        | 5          |
| 12:05:15 | 1890                         | 14        | 5          |
| 12:05:30 | 1980                         | 12        | 5          |
| 12:05:45 | 2070                         | 18        | 4          |
| 12:06:00 | 2160                         | 10        | 4          |
| 12:06:15 | 2250                         | 16        | 4          |
| 12:06:30 | 2340                         | 17        | 3          |

The character has FP 10, Move 5, Running 16, and is sprinting (moving 6 yards per second). He got to about a mile and a third in six and a quarter minutes before reaching 1/3 FP. At a brief glance, it doesn't seem to have made any mistakes. I ran the simulation another twenty times and got comparable results.

Now let's try paced running. The same character moves at 3 yards per second ([Move + 20%]/2).

| Time     | Cumulative Distance (yards) | Dice Roll | Current FP |
|----------|------------------------------|-----------|------------|
| 12:00:00 | 0                            | -         | 10         |
| 12:01:00 | 180                          | 14        | 10         |
| 12:02:00 | 360                          | 12        | 10         |
| 12:03:00 | 540                          | 7         | 10         |
| 12:04:00 | 720                          | 15        | 10         |
| 12:05:00 | 900                          | 10        | 10         |
| 12:06:00 | 1080                         | 18        | 9          |
| 12:07:00 | 1260                         | 11        | 9          |
| 12:08:00 | 1440                         | 9         | 9          |
| 12:09:00 | 1620                         | 17        | 8          |
| 12:10:00 | 1800                         | 14        | 8          |
| 12:11:00 | 1980                         | 12        | 8          |
| 12:12:00 | 2160                         | 16        | 8          |
| 12:13:00 | 2340                         | 19        | 7          |
| 12:14:00 | 2520                         | 13        | 7          |
| 12:15:00 | 2700                         | 10        | 7          |
| 12:16:00 | 2880                         | 18        | 6          |
| 12:17:00 | 3060                         | 15        | 6          |
| 12:18:00 | 3240                         | 11        | 6          |
| 12:19:00 | 3420                         | 17        | 5          |
| 12:20:00 | 3600                         | 12        | 5          |
| 12:21:00 | 3780                         | 18        | 4          |
| 12:22:00 | 3960                         | 10        | 4          |
| 12:23:00 | 4140                         | 16        | 4          |
| 12:24:00 | 4320                         | 17        | 3          |

The character gets almost two and a half miles in twenty-four minutes. Once again, I ran the simulation twenty more times, getting comparable results.

Running does not get you farther, faster, than hiking.

[Flowergarden]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I asked Microsoft Copilot to run a sample sprint so I wouldn't have to.

Never trust AI, i suppose.
For example in sprinting he never gets number less than 10
And he gets 17+ too often. It's just statistically wrong.
1.85% of getting 17+. It's an easy formula:
0.0185*number of dice rolls
Its 55 rolls before failing. It's 55 minutes per one fp of paced running