Gunsmithing Questions

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by benz72

Not to downplay any of the undoubtedly cool pieces that are in the inheritance, but I'd think the most salient point from a details gaming perspective is the shop itself. The ability to rebuild, customize or accessorize whatever they want is probably a more relevant capability than the particular stats on any piece they happen to find.

Well, to be totally truthful, the PCs will possibly encounter either Travis Manzano, Arliss Manzano or both, at the SHOT Show in Las Vegas, Nevada, on January 21–25, 2019 (though either the PCs and/or the Manzanos might actually show up a couple of days earlier).

Those PCs mostly already have weapons, access to custom gunsmiths and aside from one graduate student who feels more comfortable with a scholarship and a part-time job as a librarian, are paid Wealthy or better salaries as security consultants through various cover and shell companies, complete with stock options and retirement accounts in Caribbean banks of their choice.

The PCs have this because they have a 100 point Patron, J.R. Kessler, an eccentric Texan billionaire said to have made his fortune in African mining, but is now heavily into oil and gas, among a vast portfolio of other investments, all seemingly dedicated to the funding, running and control of an occult intelligence service with teams of paranormal troubleshooters and monster hunters.

For some reason, most people in the alternate Earth of 2019, which serves as my setting, do not believe that there are supernatural explanations for the increase in violent crimes which took place over the 1980s (this did happen in some places, like the USA, in real history) and continued to get worse in the 1990s (despite movies, the exact opposite happened in reality).

This may be because blatant, overt unreal monsters or phenomena never happen anywhere without Mana, and technology, sceptics and modern, well-lit office buildings tend to be No Mana Zones. As do laboratories, so even if you manage to kill a werewolf, by the time you got the carcass into a real autopsy lab with a staff of expert pathologists, doing things according to procedure, whatever affected the werewolf that attacked you would be gone and you'd have the carcass of a homeless person, or maybe a coyote, dog or wolf.

In any case, Travis and Arliss Manzano will probably be friendly with the PCs, but , as I haven't finished their backstories yet, I don't know how much they will know and/or believe about the occult. Technically, there's no guarantee that both brothers remain alive in 2019.

I sure don't know how Travis' impossible love triangle with Adara Ackerman, who is a married woman who takes her vows very seriously, whatever secret feelings she may or may not harbour, will turn out. She is much younger than her husband and Travis would wait for a lifetime if he needs to, but it may not just be a triangle, depending on what happened with the young rabbi who took a post at Congregation Albert and may even be in the running for replacing Rabbi Shor whenever he retires. An unmarried Head Rabbi would not do, even in a Reform Congregation, but one who married a young widow, already an important donor to the synagogue, he might have a chance...

There is a possibility that Travis Manzano, whatever happens in his love life, will focus on his craft and, in 2019, be every bit as good as his father and perhaps his grandfather ever was. It might not be the most likely possibility, as, unless you are famous and have a well-organized team working with you churning out really expensive custom firearms, with buyers paying several extra thousand dollars for your name, being a custom gunsmith is not a good path to real financial security. Frankly, maybe Travis would do better if he pursued competitive shooting as his main focus. He has a rare talent for it.

However, he doesn't feel that he can let Manzano Gunsmithing be sold or closed, and there has to be a Manzano running it. An uncle and a nephew aren't enough, no matter how much he loves them, and how much they've done for the family business, Uncle Roy Hanson and young Rafe Walker don't carry on the Manzano name. Either Travis or Arliss needs sons of their own or it has to be one of the cousins.

Aside from PCs possibly witnessing family drama, or just making friends with either Arliss or Travis at the SHOT Show, any family heirloom firearms still in good shooting condition actually means quite a lot in terms of setting metaphysics. It's hard, pretty much impossible, to enchant an object assembled out of a wide variety of artificial components, with no individual even knowing, caring or understanding what the final outcome of their labours would be.

An object made with love, by a craftsman, who understood every step of the process as they performed it, now, those you can enchant. It's best if you power them with the life energy, the anima, of someone who'd inherit the object. Several PCs carry a family heirloom weapon thus bonded to their spirit. Some were not from their family, but were significant items, with lots of history, given to them for purposes of defending humanity. That's definitely one way to obtain a firearm which an occultist can enchant.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Icelander

While the look of the Colt Walkers is cool, I'm not sure whether Tony would want them to be percussion cap. He might build them as cartridge revolvers right from the start, chambered in .45-70 (not sure whether you could fit five or six rounds of those in a Walker cylinder).

That's a pretty tight fit, length-wise. While the case will fit, I think you'd have to use either shorter (and thus lighter) bullets than normal or seat them very deeply (or both). Either way that means less power, but as it's for a pistol and the barrel is much shorter you'd be wanting a lighter load of fast powder anyway, so it's probably workable but there might not be much point to it.

As the .44 magnum was introduced as a commercial offering in 1956, and the work using .44 special by Elmer Keith pre-dates that, extra-strong cylinders for .44 special and then .44 magnum would seem a more likely choice (though it does mean a new barrel). Alternatively, .45 Colt with smokeless handloads has some potential, though the case isn't the best (it's not particularly strong), or maybe .45 ACP and half-moon clips?

A good gunsmith make a modern hunting gun from decidedly old-fashioned components, especially if he lays in stock of beautiful wood to carve into new stocks when needed.

Old mauser actions are still a popular choice of base for building custom hunting rifles.

[Donny Brook]

Gunsmithing seems to be a much more genealogical process than I ever realized!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That's a pretty tight fit, length-wise. While the case will fit, I think you'd have to use either shorter (and thus lighter) bullets than normal or seat them very deeply (or both). Either way that means less power, but as it's for a pistol and the barrel is much shorter you'd be wanting a lighter load of fast powder anyway, so it's probably workable but there might not be much point to it.

As the .55 magnum was introduced as a commercial offering in 1956, and the work using .44 special by Elmer Keith pre-dates that, extra-strong cylinders for .44 special and then .44 magnum would seem a more likely choice (though it does mean a new barrel). Alternatively, .45 Colt with smokeless handloads has some potential, though the case isn't the best (it's not particularly strong), or maybe .45 ACP and half-moon clips?

As you can see in a later post, the dice determined that through P.O. Ackley Tony Manzano knew Dick Casull, or at least off him, well enough to know his new cartridge. Thus, the natural adoption of the .454 Casull wildcat, which Dick created in 1957, which I determined to be the year Tony Marzano makes these revolvers.

I did discover an error in my earlier backstory for him. PPC shooting only began in 1960, so he can't have been a young sheriff's deputy competing in it just before Korea. I think that this means that he didn't want to wait to be drafted in the peacetime draft of 1948, which he would have been at some point after his birthday October 21. So, to obtain a deferment, albeit a temporary one, Tony Marzano attended the Trinidad State Junior College from June 1948 to February 1950. And he'd already decided he'd enlist before he graduated, so there was no chance of him being drafted into some boring paperwork assignment.

There was no war on the horizon, at least that Tony could see, and he could have selected something in the military that would have continued his learning in a useful trade, maybe be a better all-around machinist. But being a young man of a certain temperament, he instead asked the recruiter some questions about explosions.

After considering the artillery and being disappointed that the destruction usually takes place quite far away and is not often visible, he cheered up at the description of the job of combat engineer battalions. Blowing up fortifications, bridges if need be, scuttling barges with exploding charges, and, as he expected a peacetime military interlude in his life, getting to do all sorts of training with real explosives, while the infantry and cavalry mostly did maneuver exercises.

So, Tony Manzano signed a DEP before he finished vocational school and had only just finished basic and was a fairly new soldier in the 2nd Combat Engineer Battalion, attached to the 2nd Infantry Division, when they landed at Pusan in August 1950. I know he survived, but statistically, a bad wound, capture by the North Koreans, or both, seem plausible. We'll see.

Originally Posted by Rupert

Old mauser actions are still a popular choice of base for building custom hunting rifles.

Absolutely. Though as I discovered for when running some numbers for his son Travis, if you're not famous enough to command a high premium for the work just because your name is on it, while your skilled team of gunsmiths does most of the work, the actual rate per hour is terrible.

Granted, Travis was using the Extra Time rules to actually guarantee that the rifle would be a half-MOA rifle with the right ammunition and he made small adjustments until it was, but while the two rifles he sold to the buyer on that deal were the most he'd ever been paid at once, it was still less than a journeyman mechanic would make for that many hours of work.

If it had not been Adara Ackerman who wanted two precision rifles, he would have told the customer to simply order rifles from Robbie Barrkman. Or some other well-established custom rifle shop with staff already experienced in the arcane magic of perfect precision.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Gunsmithing seems to be a much more genealogical process than I ever realized!

It's a family business!

And, somehow, I always enjoy the process of embroidering detailed backstories the most about creating characters. And there's always an object, ritual, saying or something else that they retain from family lore.

Here, of course, it could be cool old guns. So it's extra fun.

[Icelander]

To fix the error in Tony Manzano's backstory that had him participating in Police Pistol Combat (PPC) revolver competition before that sport existed, I had to tweak his life story a little and make him a part-time lawman while old Tommasso and his father Giancarlo were running Manzano Gunsmithing and he was just the youngest generation, to be blamed for everything that went wrong and made to fetch the coffee.

That's okay, as it gives a good explanation for why both his sons went into law enforcement, Arliss as a career in Las Vegas Metro PD, and Travis, like his old man, as a part-time Reserve Deputy. In any case, I need a revolver which Tony Manzano would have found at an estate sale, taken in trade or otherwise rescued, which someone else didn't see anything special in, but he recognized good bones and an action that could be smooth as butter.

It has to fire double-action smoothly and break predictably enough so that there's never any reason to cock the hammer. Same pressure every time, same faint sensation of surprise that it breaks so easily, same point of impact.

This describes more old Smith & Wessons than any other brand of revolver, but there are Colts that could qualify with enough tender loving care. Dan Wessons, even the newer Rugers or the occasional Taurus, but then we run across the time limit. This is supposed to be a revolver that is already well used by 1960. So, almost certainly a Smith & Wesson, because of it was a Colt 'snakegun' and someone is selling it cheaply, it's probably got timing issues. There's Pythons with perfect triggers out there, but none of them are hiding their lights under a bushel. Everybody can see those are valuable.

For PPC, there's no need for more than .38 Special chambering, but if Tony is going to carry this as his all-purpose, do-everything, law-enforcement duty gun as well as PPC competition gun, it can be chambered in .357 Magnum, it would just always fire .38 Special in competition. And it doesn't need to be concealable, as such, he's fine with owning an off-duty piece too. Just, a comfortable size for open carry in a duty belt.

I'm mostly looking for a charming photograph of such a gun, where you can see the age, holster wear and patina, but also the loving care lavished on it to keep it mechanically perfect. I would accept any frame size from a K frame to N and any barrel length from 3" to 6", though a bull-barrel in 4" to 5" seems most plausible.

Sensible period adjustable sights, even custom ones, are fine, but not so big or so fragile that they interfere with a normal draw from a duty holster. And obviously no scopes or red dots.

[Icelander]

I'm also looking for multiple examples, with photographs, of nice hunting weapons (for nearly any kind of hunting where you might be on horseback) which are comfortable to carry while in a saddle. Saddle scabbards or a saddle ring and leather or canvas bag are the traditional ways to carry a longarm while riding.

Optics are an incredible advantage for many shooters, especially those who don't have young eyes with perfect vision, but nearly any kind of mounted optic will make a longarm harder to pack comfortably while in the saddle.

Bolt-action rifles tend to be shaped less conveniently for slim scabbard-packing, but folding bolts or some straight-pull ones may not be so bad. And, of course, there are takedown rifles or handguns, such as Remington XP100 or Thompson/Center Contenders or Encores.

Lever-action rifles are traditional, but tubular magazines tend to limit one to unaerodynamic bullets. The answer to that are rotary or box magazines, like Savage 99, Browning BLR or Winchester 71 rifles.

Ruger No. 1 or No. 3 single-shot rifles are sleek enough for saddle scabbards, hunting does not, strictly speaking, require a large magazine, and they are attractive firearms. Somewhat expensive, of course, and without an optic, they require perfect, uncorrected vision and a rare facility to estimate range to a target to use with any accurary beyond Point-Blank Range. Of course, an argument might be made that to fire at longer ranges than that while hunting is unsporting, unethical, or both.

With the NFA amnesty in 1968, which few people who did not regularly read gun magazines even knew about, Tony Manzano had an excellent chance to cut down some pistol-caliber lever-actions to 'trapper' length and some old-school shotguns to 'whippit' length barrels, legally register them during the amnesty period, and sell them at some profit to people who've always wanted such toys, but not been able to afford the prices for the few originals.

He wouldn't even have to defraud anyone, replica 'trapper' carbines and 'whippit' shotguns become more marketable the less significant a premium the $200 tax becomes, with inflation. If he's able to make his own receivers (or order them bare from the factory), he can even make legal AOW 'whippit' shotguns with pistol grips, which never had a shoulder stock, and thus carry only an insignificant $5 tax premium.

His sons should definitely inherit a few nice NFA registered firearms for which Tony was waiting for an offer he couldn't deny.

Tony Manzano had skill 16 in practical Armoury (Smalllarms), but only skill 12 at the Artist and Jewelry parts of custom gunsmithing. His brother, Mose Bruno Manzano, was the master at finding and selecting perfect wood for stocks and an artist at hand checkering. Vicki Manzano, neé Hanson, had an artistic eye for beauty. She'd pose and photograph firearms to show them to their best advantage. She also learned engraving, polishing and filigreeing firearms during her two decades with Tony, so that all in all, they were a one-stop-shop, with the next-generation, teenaged Travis Manzano already working part-time loading custom hunting or target loads for favoured clients.

[johndallman]

There's a decent video on the Colt Walker here with a fair amount on the mechanism, plus loading and shooting of a reproduction.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Oh my, that's going to be a beast of a weapon. As I just mentioned in another thread, a potential advantage of .454 Casull is that, if the user is so inclined, weapons chambered for it will happily accept the much more modest .45 Long Colt and .45 S&W (and the recoil when doing so would probably be more-or-less negligible for a weapon heavy enough to handle .454 Casull). If it is part of a pair, I wonder if it would work out to load one weapon for bear (.454 Casull) and the other with one of the weaker cartridges, then depending on the critter that pops up during the ride, you can grab the one that's appropriate.

Actually, if New Mexico had any kind of muzzleloading hunting season back in the late 50s, it might make sense to make one revolver an original replica, legal for hunting during that season (and capable of handling a full 60 grains of black powder or the equivalent in modern emulation, so it actually can take a mule deer with a heavy bullet). I'll try to find find sources on when such hunting rules were adopted there.

If they weren't a thing yet, chamber both in .454 Casull, but mostly shoot .45 Colt loads from them. A .45 Colt with a 260 grain soft lead bullet and enough powder to make the velocity 900 fps will take a deer humanely if you can place the bullet right. And .45 Colt snakeshot loads will handle rattlesnakes from a safe distance, even from the saddle.

Originally Posted by Varyon

The weight won't be perfectly balanced (the .454 Casull is a heavier round than the others), but will be within roughly 0.1 lb (0.396 vs 0.3 or 0.27; even if this Super Colt Walker is no heavier than the original, you're looking at something like a 3% difference in weight between the loadings), which is probably close enough.

I'm not much of a rider; I've actually fallen numerous times off horse and saddle both while galloping clumsily trying to keep up with a 'horse girl', the kind who has horses and goes riding every time she has some free time. Let's just say it's lucky that the genie in Aladdin is right, "A woman appreciates a man who can make her laugh."

Yet even I know that it's more important to have something hanging of each side of the saddle in front, if you're going to have a weight on one side, than for that weight to match up 100%. A few ounces off won't make any difference, and if someone is extremely dedicated to matching the load, they'll be hanging off richly decorated leather holsters. Put a few more beads on the lighter side, maybe even sew on a little extra compartment for a cleaning kit, small powder horn, compass, skinning knife, multitool or whetstone. Or all of the above, placing an ounce or two more on the side that's got the lighter loaded revolver.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Also, I must say I love the way you come up with rich backstories, interwoven with real-world history, for background NPC's (and even backstory NPC's, considering Tony's long gone by the start of the campaign). I don't think I could manage it, but I'd imagine it helps make the setting feel like a real, living world for your players.

You know how some wargamers say their real hobby is painting miniatures, the specific game they play is just the excuse they need to justify all that decorating?

Well, coming up with intricate family histories and finding perfect photographs to represent heirloom objects which might be enchanted with subtle occult rituals is definitely at least a significant part of my hobby, though I do love to roleplay characters who feel real and connected to their world, a world with the same kind of complex texture you find in the real world, where if you look for them, there are stories everywhere.

Originally Posted by johndallman

There's a decent video on the Colt Walker here with a fair amount on the mechanism, plus loading and shooting of a reproduction.

Thanks. I'm more of a text guy, though I am willing to admit the technology of photography is a tremendous aid to accurately mentally picturing something.

[Pursuivant]

Two thoughts:

1) For a gunsmithing shop in the Southwest that opens in 1921, it might be possible to get mid-to-late 19th century gunsmithing tools for cheap since they'd largely be obsolete with the transition from black to smokeless powder in the 1900s. The same goes for old BP firearms that couldn't be upgraded to use smokeless powder and farrier equipment that becomes obsolete with the introduction of the automobile.

Any smith/machinist/etc. with enough space and income will have serious packrat tendencies, so it's not impossible that even in the 1950s family members will have access to authentic 19th century gunsmithing tools, parts, etc. That would make it easier for a journeyman gunsmith to make a "masterwork" 19th c. style gun because the tools, jigs, etc. needed would all be in place.

One possibility for a masterwork that wouldn't be too hard would be a shotgun with a damascene barrel. Another possibility would be a heavily engraved presentation pistol, assuming skill with Artist (Engraving).

2) A gunsmith near an Indian reservation in the 1920s or 30s might have a reason to keep making or repairing black powder guns, since Native Americans of the period were (mostly) impoverished. If they couldn't afford a new gun, they could possibly afford to have an obsolete black powder gun repaired, refurbished or upgraded to use smokeless powder cartridges. While the last option is dangerous for high-powered weapons, it might not be unreasonable for small caliber hunting rifles.

BP shotguns would be another possibility, since they'd be decent weapons for small game and bird hunting and black powder and DIY shot might be cheaper or more available than shotgun cartridges. Alternately, it might have been easier to make BP shotgun cartridges using reused brass as the base and new primers and waxed cardboard or similar to make the cartridge. During the Depression, a local gunsmith might have sold reloaded ammo for cheap.