4e Revised

[Rolando]

I think that a new 4e GURPS Lite or GURPS 4e Update with a series of changes to make the most common changes/upgrades official will do.

We already have GURPS in 3 books, Characters, Campaign and Powers (or any mix of your 3 favorite GURPS books for that matter)... and no matter how you rearrange the books you will end with some people that will think of better ways of rearranging it. I like the way advantages are separate from disadvantages for example, I would't like mixing them in categories, forcing me to look at multiple categories in search of a -5 pointer.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

To save space, I would drop the original magic system from the core books in favor of a brief explanation of how to make Advantages work like 'magic'.

Well, GURPS Magic is very nearly self-contained; I think the only thing it needs from the Basic Set is the Magery Advantage. So, yeah; if the space is needed, I could see cutting the Magic chapter. But I'd rather not if it can be avoided.

That said, I'd also take the opportunity to publish a GURPS Magic 4e Revised, adding Magery and Magical Resistance to the book to make it truly self-contained, and applying the numerous corrections to its spells that were the result of Magic being a rushed project coming out before 4e had properly settled.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Also I would rationalze the way exotic skills (Power Blow etc.) work and work Imbuements into that.

Coming up with a generic, universal exotic skills system has been a long-time dream of mine; but I honestly don't see it being a 4eR thing.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

It would also be nice to have a section combining core parts of How to Be a GURPS GM and Action 2.

This. 4e has a chapter on advice for the GM; I could see updating it using How to Be a GURPS GM as a guide. And the "10 for 10" article cited several sections of Action 2 for inclusion.

Originally Posted by Rolando

I think that a new 4e GURPS Lite or GURPS 4e Update with a series of changes to make the most common changes/upgrades official will do.

The problem with that is that it involves consulting multiple books: the 4e Basic Set for the original rules, and the 4e Update to see if rose particular rules have been revised. I can see putting out an Update, too, as long as it isn't too extensive. But the reason for a 4eR would be to avoid having to consult multiple books in order to know what's going on with one rule: it should incorporate errata and revisions directly into the text, rather than providing a patch to use alongside the text.

Originally Posted by Rolando

We already have GURPS in 3 books, Characters, Campaign and Powers (or any mix of your 3 favorite GURPS books for that matter)... and no matter how you rearrange the books you will end with some people that will think of better ways of rearranging it.

Technically true; but in practice, you're just being dismissive of the proposal rather than actually bringing forward a solid argument why it's fine the way it is. Except for:

Originally Posted by Rolando

I like the way advantages are separate from disadvantages for example, I would't like mixing them in categories, forcing me to look at multiple categories in search of a -5 pointer.

Instead, you have to look through an alphabetical list in search for a –5 pointer. Not much of an improvement; especially since you can do that just as easily by consulting the lists of Traits that already exist in 4e's Characters.

[rkbrown419]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

To save space, I would drop the original magic system from the core books in favor of a brief explanation of how to make Advantages work like 'magic'.

If you're going that route incorporate at least the bare bones of powers and make Sorcery the games default magic system. It's much more generic and flexible than the current standard.

[Ramidel]

Originally Posted by rkbrown419

If you're going that route incorporate at least the bare bones of powers and make Sorcery the games default magic system. It's much more generic and flexible than the current standard.

Honestly, Magic and Psionics in the corebook feel like the legacy of GURPS' origins in The Fantasy Trip. Both should be stripped out and left to the add-on modules, which have the space to deal with them properly.

[benz72]

Rationalize/standardize all the damage types, to include things like control (from wrestling, whips, binding attacks, &c.)

[binn05]

Originally Posted by benz72

Rationalize/standardize all the damage types to include things like control (from wrestling, whips, binding attacks, &c.)

That would be nice.

[Pursuivant]

Turn some of the "background skills" like Speed Reading and Typing into Perks.

Use the Hit Location rules from Low Tech Companion III which turn the "Groin" hit location into the Abdomen. Treat the Groin as an independent hit location targeted like the Vitals.

Stop using different words to describe different levels of the same traits. For example, not "Cautious, Cowardice" or "Extra Flexibility, Double Jointed" just Cowardice [-1] to define it a Quirk or Extra Flexibility 2 [15].

Add extra levels of leveled traits where they make sense, like Bad Smell or Disturbing Voice with just a -1 Reaction or Voice with just a +1 Reaction.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by benz72

Rationalize/standardize all the damage types, to include things like control (from wrestling, whips, binding attacks, &c.)

Yeah, that would be great. I could also see the somewhat-clumsy grappling rules from Basic Set being replaced by those from Fantastic Dungeon Grappling (essentially a simplified and improved version of Technical Grappling), as well as the rules from "The Broken Blade" at least being given as an alternative to the default weapon breakage rules. I'd also be partial to one of the simplified options from "On Target" replacing the current Aim rules, but that might be asking for a bit too much.

Originally Posted by dcarson

There are several pistol sports where fast draw is part of it or almost all of it.
http://www.fastdraw.org/fd_trying.html

My own inclination is to make Fast Draw a Technique, probably defaulting to something like Prerequisite Skill -3 (although there is precedent for Prerequisite Skill +0 - consider Reverse Grip, for example). Someone who is primarily interested in Fast Draw would just put [2] or [4] in Guns (Pistol), buy up the Fast Draw Technique to full, and then grab Technique Mastery to bump it up higher (optionally, you might allow for multiple levels of Technique Mastery, if you need someone with Guns 10 and Fast-Draw 20 or something like that).

Granted, that's arguably more heroic/cinematic than reality, where the ability to draw your weapon quickly and the ability to use it are fairly divorced from each other (of course, for Harsh Realism, those who are untrained or otherwise have low skill may have difficulty drawing their weapon in a single Ready maneuver as well).

Options to let an attack be traded for a Feint (as introduced in Martial Arts) or a Ready (as seen with Fast-Firing Bows, also introduced in Martial Arts) would also be welcome; note the latter case would call for a roll against weapon skill to ready the weapon. That would also allow for the as-written Fast Draw to still exist but also allow highly-skilled characters to make use of their weapon skill instead, via a Rapid Strike. But I'm probably getting a little too far afield here...

[dataweaver]

I'm curious how many people would want 4eR to feature a Control Points system instead of the existing Success Rolls system as the default grappling rules. I tend to like the latter due to the lower amount of bookkeeping involved; but I do see the argument for making the rules for grapples more consistent with the rules for strikes.

[acrosome]

I guess I'd just say "Use all of my house rules!", of course! I haven't read through all of this thread, so I'm sure these have been mentioned:

• Use Slam rules from Dungeon Fantasy.
• Use the modified ST damage table that Kromm endorsed.
• Split Per and Wil from IQ.
• Picks and spikesshould do pi damage with a (2) armor divisor, like a bodkin.
• Add a Control Rating to Pacifism, and probably a few others. Stubbornness, etc.
• Make a 5-point version of Honesty that isn't quite as crippling.
• Quite a few skills need mandatory specialization, like Tactics. But there are others.
• Add the rules for Tactics from Martial Arts.
• Include the Optional Wounding Rules from High-Tech, such as Body Shots.
• Critical success or failure only on a natural 3 or 18 or success/fail by 10 (almost 1-in-20 crits is too common).
• Quite a few ads/disads probably need to be renamed and rationalized, especially Talents. Too many cute setting-specific names. Include the old name in the description, so it's searchable in a PDF, for backwards compatability.
• And quite a few should be re-scaled to have a level 0. Level should generally always equal the bonus/penalty. And many ads/disads with varying names for different levels should just be leveled under the same name.
• Include all of the hit locations from Martial Arts.
• Include meta rules like Buying Success, Flesh Wounds, Miraculous Recoveries, Player Guidance, etc. from Impulse Buys. These can replace Luck and Serendipity- remove them.
• Add complementary skills.
• Add Chases from Action and Ambushes from Dungeon Fantasy.
• Add survival rules adapted from After the End.
• Include all of the non-combat techniques that have been published. And some skills can become techniques instead, like Pickpocket and Filch being Sleight of Hand techniques. Fast Draw could maybe be a Guns (or Bow, etc.) technique.
• Consider the new ads/disads from GURPS Animalia, like Motion-Sensitive Bad Sight.
• Split Languages into two advantages: Fluency and Literacy. The latter would be categorized by alphabet, like Latin alphabet, Cyrillic alphabet, Chinese logograms, Egyptian hieroglyphics, etc.
• Remove the Infinite Worlds setting from the Basic Set. But include Caravan to Ein Arras, since it doesn't use magic and could just be played with the basic combat system (see below).
• Change Physician skill to Treatment skill. Nurses know only Treatment, whereas physicians add Diagnosis and/or Surgery.
• Remove Feints- subsume feints into Deceptive Attacks.
• Get rid of the Staff special defensive bonus and formalize Defensive Grip instead.
• The Fantastic Dungeon Grappling system (thanks, Doug!)

We probably actually need four books in the 4eR Basic Set:

My greatest recommendation would be not to split the game books into Characters and Campaigns. Instead have a Basic and an Advanced book, and make Magic completely separate. The Advanced book would for instance include Tactical Combat and all of the ten thousand situation-specific rules, but character generation would be in Basic with the Basic Combat rules, along with the chapter on success rolls. The Basic book should not include all of the detailed hit locations from Martial Arts- those would be in the Advanced book.

This Basic/Advanced split is to make it clear that GURPS is a toolbox. The greatest criticism heard about GURPS is that it is "too complicated"- which is not entirely unfounded- and that's why it needs a Basic rules book. This is also why the basic magic system should be retained in the new Basic Set- sorcery and RPM require too much work and/or too many judgement calls from the GM for beginning players/GMs. By all means include them but sorcery, psionics, and superpowers should be in the (fourth) 4eR Powers book.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

I'm curious how many people would want 4eR to feature a Control Points system instead of the existing Success Rolls system as the default grappling rules.

As much as Technical Grappling was fun to read and say "Yeah, that's awesome", I have kind of concluded that it's too much book keeping in a game that is already heavy on book keeping, as well as a large number of yet more odd bonuses/penalties to memorize. But certainly there are settings where it would be worth it- like a modern or scifi setting where weaponry is controlled, so that it basically becomes a Martial Arts game. Maybe put it in the Advanced book, too?